Ladyboys' Families Lose Face.

[bumblebee]

I was chatting to my ladyboy friend recently and she mentioned how her family lost face because she was the first ladyboy born in the family, including the extended one. She went on to say how ladyboys are treated as if there is something wrong with them, freaks is the word she used.  

 

While we all know life can be difficult for our chosen ones career wise, I had never really thought too much about how the family view them.  It was a bit of an eye opener to hear her family felt ashamed to have a ladyboy in the family, sad really.

 

What have been your experiences and insights regarding this area of a ladyboy's life?

[rxpharm]

It really depends on the family, but generally she is right. However, if they are able to financially support the family, then things change. This is part of the pressures lbs face and why a number get into p4p.

 

My ex-gf had pressure not only to support her immediate family but also her extended family, some uncles, aunts and cousins. It got too much for her and she moved out of LOS  and cut them off except her immediate family. She changed to giving them a fixed monthly supplement that would not increase.

[soiboy]

Two of my favorites to spend a few days at a time with when I'm in Thailand have very different stories in this regard.  #1 is the eldest child in her family, and the only son.  Her father can't accept her, but at least her mother and high-school aged sister do talk with her regularly.  Even with this semi-estrangement she feels a huge responsibility to send money to her family since they are very poor, even if that means that she has no savings of her own and therefore little chance of a future out of "the business" (which she doesn't really like) unless she makes some changes.  #2 is the youngest of five children in a family that at least has a little bit of money.  Her older siblings are all married with children and gainfully employed.  Thus, there is little pressure on her to fulfill any particular role in the family so she is basically free to be who she is.  She visits home regularly to go to temple with her mother and to cook for her family (she's a really good cook!).

 

So, yes, the circumstances of each girl's family really have an impact on how they are viewed.

[4:17]

But wait, don't all the guidebooks say Thailand is enlightened and tolerant? 555

 

I've had many girls tell me the same thing, and you can see it for yourself sometimes when you live here. Yes, Thais are much more tolerant and accepting of transgendered woman and gay people, male or female, than most cultures in the Western world, but they are still definitely second class citizens in many respects. Many times I've had Thai people see a ladyboy and point her out to me, as if she were a reason for amusement -- something to be ridiculed (much like they do with farang, 555). Then there is the portrayal of ladyboys in popular entertainment; it's frequently anything but flattering, usually played to stereotype.

 

Have you ever talked to a ladyboy or another Thai person about why someone might be born transgendered? A common belief, this being a Buddhist country, is that it is because of negative actions in a previous life -- perhaps as a man they harmed women, etc. It's a rather commonly-held belief, from what I gather. Not everyone feels this way, but again, not uncommon.

 

I think unless a ladyboy is very smart and clever, and/or her family is well to do and supportive and she can get a good education, her options in life as an adult are going to be limited, even more so than your average Thai -- especially if they come from a rural area. There's a reason so many girls/ladyboys from Isaan -- as opposed to the Bangkok metro area or other large cities -- work in the service industry here (and by that, I don't just mean the beer bars and whatnot as prostitutes).

 

What does your missus say about this topic, BB?

[bumblebee]

But wait, don't all the guidebooks say Thailand is enlightened and tolerant? 555

 

I've had many girls tell me the same thing, and you can see it for yourself sometimes when you live here. Yes, Thais are much more tolerant and accepting of transgendered woman and gay people, male or female, than most cultures in the Western world, but they are still definitely second class citizens in many respects. Many times I've had Thai people see a ladyboy and point her out to me, as if she were a reason for amusement -- something to be ridiculed (much like they do with farang, 555). Then there is the portrayal of ladyboys in popular entertainment; it's frequently anything but flattering, usually played to stereotype.

 

Have you ever talked to a ladyboy or another Thai person about why someone might be born transgendered? A common belief, this being a Buddhist country, is that it is because of negative actions in a previous life -- perhaps as a man they harmed women, etc. It's a rather commonly-held belief, from what I gather. Not everyone feels this way, but again, not uncommon.

 

I think unless a ladyboy is very smart and clever, and/or her family is well to do and supportive and she can get a good education, her options in life as an adult are going to be limited, even more so than your average Thai -- especially if they come from a rural area. There's a reason so many girls/ladyboys from Isaan -- as opposed to the Bangkok metro area or other large cities -- work in the service industry here (and by that, I don't just mean the beer bars and whatnot as prostitutes).

 

What does your missus say about this topic, BB?

When she is feeling down I can see her frustration with her life.  She will sometimes ask "Why is my life like this?" and then answer herself with "Coz I do something BAD in another life."  While her family are poor, they is no big pressure on her to send money home from what I can see.  She was fortunate that her mother gave her a loan to get an education so that she would not fall into the p4p trap.  The only thing she sends is medicine and stuff back home every so often  She sometimes says "my mother is a great lady because she take care of me and want me to have a good life."

[KendoUK]

When I went to Jen's village last year her family didn't seem to mind, I don't know how things were for her growing up though. 

 

She was treated like a returning hero in every little soi by young & old but I think some of this was down to the whole "face" thing of her being able to parade me around the village on her arm and to this day she still talks very fondly of that time in her home.

 

I don't think until I got back to England and I saw Scott on TV in Paeng's village did I realise the true gravity of them taking farangs into the village.

[garrydirty]

what pisses me off is there still quick enough too take money off them, the LB I think that's why so many try so hard to please the family and send back as much money as they can, trying to gain acceptance from them....Regards Garry

[mardhi]

Imagine having twins who both turned out to be ladyboys !!!!

 

Those two and many will know who they are, went through hell from their father especially.    macho army guys don't have lb's let alone two of them.     a lot of other nasty stuff also took place in this kind loving country that would put Jimmy Saville in a (relatively) good light.    Many won't hear about or understand that it could happen in this day & age, but it does.  what is even more incredible is that the children still are under pressure to support that same extended family whom often have inflicted such bad crap when they are younger.       

[SiamSam]

I think I know the "twins". 

[canook]

First off great topic to discuss. I am new in a relationship with LB and when I see a discussion that certainly relates I get interested. I haven't yet gone to the village but have met her sisters in Bangkok on a recent trip. It was a great evening but of course one can't help but wander what the sisters are thinking about the man who is with the LB sister/brother. I imagine it will be more of an eye opener meeting the parents. I am always wondering how One will be accepted. I very much understand the Thai culture of acceptance, I come from a very tolerant country being Canada. I can`t help but keep thinking about the show Modern Family, my luck being meeting the Thai Jay Prtichett type Dad :-)

I can only say now that it is another step in a relationship with a Lady boy. I certainly hope for the same acceptance as others have received and that the parents can be proud of their "daughter"

[SiamSam]

From another Canuck, I wish you the very BEST of luck Canook. 

 

And yes, we have a most terrific country sans terrific ladyboys. 

[globetrotter]

From another Canuck, I wish you the very BEST of luck Canook. 

 

And yes, we have a most terrific country sans terrific ladyboys. 

Best of luck from out here in Lotusland

[bumblebee]

First off great topic to discuss. I am new in a relationship with LB and when I see a discussion that certainly relates I get interested. I haven't yet gone to the village but have met her sisters in Bangkok on a recent trip. It was a great evening but of course one can't help but wander what the sisters are thinking about the man who is with the LB sister/brother. I imagine it will be more of an eye opener meeting the parents. I am always wondering how One will be accepted. I very much understand the Thai culture of acceptance, I come from a very tolerant country being Canada. I can`t help but keep thinking about the show Modern Family, my luck being meeting the Thai Jay Prtichett type Dad :-)

I can only say now that it is another step in a relationship with a Lady boy. I certainly hope for the same acceptance as others have received and that the parents can be proud of their "daughter"

Good point Canook and welcome to the forum..I felt the same when I went to the village, what the hell are the family thinking of me being with the LB member of the family.  Did they think I was gay, or perhaps they didn't think anything at all, and that that's more a western preoccupation.

 

Where is Pacman when we need him to give us some more insight.

[4:17]

I don't think the Thais really care that much, one way or the other, BB -- not like we in the West do. People go on and on about "face" in this part of the world, when we have the same thing, it just works differently in the West. While in many ways Thais look at anyone who isn't Thai as a barbarian, at the same time, they don't hold us to the standards they hold other Thais to, simply because we aren't Thai.

 

On one hand, they are amazed that falang would be so brazen as to be stepping out with a working girl in public, something a Thai man would never do (if you've ever seen a Thai brothel that caters to Thai men -- well, you haven't because unless you knew it for what it was, it would look just like another house, office building, etc.). The fact that it might be a lady, ladyboy, or some twink boy from Boystown you're walking with is immaterial.  But then it's not a loss of face, per se, because we're not Thai.

 

Much less stigma for us here, doing that, than back home, to be sure -- even if you are public with your preferences -- unless of course, you live in a place like San Francisco or something. Even then you may run into some asshole that feels justified in verbalizing his or her opinion of you.

 

To be honest, I think Thais are more scandalized by the fact that guys will walk around with shorts on at a nice restaurant, or walk around on the street with their shirts off, than anything else. Evidence of our barbarianism, 555. Seriously, ask your lady about this sometime, if you haven't already.

 

I just waltzed down my soi earlier this afternoon with Miss Fah in tow, in her work clothes and fuck-me high heels, because we forgot to stop by her place to pick up some street clothes once we got in the taxi last night. Most of my neighbors were out; I said "sawasdee" to the ones I normally chat with, and did even stop to talk briefly with the lady I buy food from sometimes. Hardly anyone batted an eye at Fah. There were a few second glances, but no snickers or rubbernecking. And I can catch enough Thai now to know when I'm being discussed.

 

Granted, maybe they just waited 'til I was out of eyeshot/earshot, but when I walked back home an hour later by myself, again, it was business as usual -- no knowing grins, or anything like that. And it's not like I make a habit of this; in the six months I've lived here, she's only the second lady I've brought home (as you know, I tend to save the whoring for the weekends down in Patts).

 

With regard to your old lady, that makes all the difference in the world when the family will pony up for an education -- an uncommon thing for a rural family to do. She would have had considerably fewer options if she wanted to get off the farm/out of the village with an education. But then that's the same the world over, to one degree or another. Good on her mum.

[canook]

Lot of good comments here, so here is another question since we are on the topic of Lady Boy Families.

Is one required to give the traditional Dowry to the Ladyboy's parents if they get married?  (Please don't everyone start thinking that I am getting married at this time, just a topic for discussion)

[rxpharm]

The answer is yes, but the key is how much the asking price is for the dowry. If it is an outrageous fee (say 5-10 million baht), you know they are seeing you as the "farang" meal ticket. If they ask a regular price that most Thai grooms would pay - say in the hundreds of thousand baht range, then you're being accepted as a regular groom.

[wangsuda]

The answer is yes, but the key is how much the asking price is for the dowry. If it is an outrageous fee (say 5-10 million baht), you know they are seeing you as the "farang" meal ticket. If they ask a regular price that most Thai grooms would pay - say in the hundreds of thousand baht range, then you're being accepted as a regular groom.

Oh there is more to it than that. Simple farming types do not command hundreds of thousands. You start speaking that kind of money and you're into the university educated, career-tracked types. Also remember that the amount of "sin sod" (bride price) is generally returned to the newly married couple as a gift from the parents to help the new couple start out. Be very wary of those who constantly mention sin sod. Take it from one with experience.

[Hefe]

I'm confused by this since there is no allowance for gay marraige in LOS, I'm not even sure the posties are legally female, tho I may be wrong about this. So how can a family ask for a marraige dowry... and for their "son"?

 

Both of these subjects above bring to mind the fe'fafine of Polynesia who are completely accepted, in fact chosen at birth & steered in that direction by their family in many cases. Their status is completely honored by family & recognized by traditional society including their marraiges.

[rxpharm]

Hefe, there is a difference between a legal marriage ceremony where the couple are officially registered by government officials as "legally married" and a temple wedding, which is a marriage ceremony without legal status. Sometimes lbs even have the western style ceremony in LOS, but it has no legal standing.

 

There is a movement going on to try and get legal status for same sex marriage in LOS - but it is a very low priority for the current government.

[pacman]

Where is Pacman when we need him to give us some more insight.

 

No specific insight from me BB. I have never gone to a village with a ladyboy & apart from Chiang Mai, I haven't travelled around northern Thailand.

 

I have talked with guys who have & I do have an opinion about the subject but to draw conclusions does require some generalisations. So with that proviso, here's a few thoughts.

 

There are just the same divide of opinions among the Thais about LBs as we have. Some parents love their child unconditionally, others don't. In many villages in Issan, LBs are considered second class citizens & if they are half farang, they are considered fair game for men of the village. You can read that how you like but it does include rape & other degradations. I don't suggest it happens to all of them but certainly most of them. And I have had that confirmed most forcefully by ex-pats who have lived there for years. Even Lung mentioned recently that these are not nice people.

 

I have been told about all sorts of abuse & I can imagine the feelings of disgust felt by a new father when told his son was katoey. Thinking of how he felt about them & knowing he now had one in his family, I think rejection is not an unexpected emotion. We are not talking about a sophisticated attitude towards homophobia here & the thought of their son going through what they put some poor katoey through them self... well it doesn't take a lot of imagining to see their dilemma. 

 

I have also been told that sin sod for LBs is very much something they try on farangs because it is unimaginable that another Thai would want to marry a katoey. And stories of large amounts of money paid by a westerner must have reached every corner of Issan & every parent of a katoey would welcome such a situation.

 

I know many guys have been welcomed warmly by their in-laws but they are also advised to come bearing gifts. I wonder how that changes the reception if they come with nothing? Or is it the same in the expectation that gifts are still to come? I'm sorry if that sounds cynical but with the Thai's ability to switch off the love the moment the money stops, you'll have to forgive me if I can't take their warm sincerity too seriously.

 

A few guys have built houses in their girlfriend's village & felt welcomed. I heard the story about one of these fellas who had overheard a couple of the locals call him by a different name. He only caught it a couple of times & never to his face but he concluded it must refer to his farang status or nationality. He was visiting Bangkok talking to a Thai & he asked him what it meant. The Thai man couldn't tell him, he didn't know an English equivalent but it was about the worst name someone could be called. 

 

It turned out that he was a great guy to their face, not so great behind his back. As I wrote, these people are not very sophisticated. 

[wangsuda]

Let's face it friends, when we get dragged back to the village, the lady gets to show off what she won in the guava lottery. However, for those with more dollars than sense:

• NEVER buy a house in ANYONE's name. If you must buy something, buy a condo. Those you can legally own with no Thai co-sign.
• Keep your money off shore.
• Same with any insurance policies
• And most important: if it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true.
• Second most important: when in doubt, there is no doubt.

Happy hunting!

[SiamSam]

Good advice wangsuda.

[Tomcat]

 the Thai's ability to switch off the love the moment the money stops, you'll have to forgive me if I can't take their warm sincerity too seriously.

 

 Seeing how most of the guys are at least twice their age or more its no surprise there Paccers. 

 

also

 

The few ladyboys that i have spoken to about this had parents that were pretty anti Katoey as is to be expected. In any culture. its not the norm  to have a son who wears hi heels is it

[canook]

Pacman Wangsuda, Great comments / insight and advice. Excellent that many are taking the time to share their thoughts, experience / expertise on this thread.

[Guest EvaValentina]

I was once disowned by my father after I told him I am a ladyboy. Being a ladyboyhere in the Philippines is really difficult, A lot I mean a lot of problems you have to face andits up to you how to handle it. I learned everything from living alone those times, no food so I have to find ways to eat. Absolutely no support from my family so I become independent and strong. My ladyboy friends helped me in several ways to survive like hair cutting, treatments for women, professional make-up techniques which I used to earn money during those times. After 3 years a relative offered me to study and I grabbed it immediately, with her support and the Congressman I become a Professional who finished college with COMPUTER PROGRAMMING, PROFESSIONAL CARE GIVING, AND BACHELOR OF SCIENCEIN NURSING, Luckilly I passed the National Board Exam and became a proud REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL NURSE.

 

After my father Noticed I worked hard to prove him I can do it and earn respect from others thats the only time he spoke to me and fixed our relationship in my family. Finally I became happy with having peace of mind. And he even accepted my Boyfriend for 12 years. My boyfriend and I are still living together up to now. And im proud that I dont have to result to prostitution.

 

Right now im working at a District Hospital in the Philippines  which makes me and my family happy for me. Just want to share my experience here from being disowned and humilliated to being respected.