MH 17

[duke007]

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

On time - arrives in 6 hours 36 mins

 

AMS...KL

Departed Amsterdam,

Thursday, 17 July

Scheduled 12:00

Terminal Gate 3

Time 12:14 

 

Arrives Kuala Lumpur,

Friday, 18 July

Times 06:10

Terminal  M

Gate -

 

 

Reports are coming in that MH 17 has been shot down near the Russia/Ukraine border with 295 passengers on board

[duke007]

Reports  that a Malaysian 777 with 295 people on board has crashed in the Ukraine.

Interfax has said that the aircraft crashed near the Ukrainian/Russian border, and Malaysia has confirmed an "incident" on one of their aircraft. The aircraft was reportedly going from Europe to Malaysia, and never entered Russian airspace, as expected. It reportedly started losing altitude just before the Russian border, and was near the fighting in Donetsk.

[Snick]

Fuck.

 

It was reportedly shot down at 33,000 feet. Which requires a pretty sophisticated missile. Thats not a hand held stinger or similar.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/17/malaysian-airlines-crash-ukraine-russia/12779763/

[pdogg]

Are there problems between Malaysia and either Russia or the Ukraine?

[rxpharm]

It has been reported that the Russians have supplied the Ukrainian rebels with high altitude air to ground missiles, from MSN ca.

 

 

An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a gas station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 metres (72,000 feet).

 

This will cause even more problems for Putin as he made a major mistake with this venture. Arming trigger happy rebels wasn't a wise move, despite being applauded by US tea party members and right wing Republicans, that he is more effective and "ballsy" than Obama.

 

Condolences to all the families and friends of the passengers and crew of MH 17.

[Snick]

Likely one of the sides Ukraine,Russian, or Rebels thought it belonged to other side and shot it down.

 

Malaysian Airlines was silly for flying anywhere near that area they should have diverted west or east to avoid the border area.

 

Still inexcusable 

[rxpharm]

Doubtful it would have been the Ukrainians as their air traffic control would have ID'ed the plane as civilian. Much more likely to be the Russian supported rebel faction or perhaps Russian army called to fire the missile by the rebels as they wouldn't be using air traffic control radar.

[rxpharm]

Likely one of the sides Ukraine,Russian, or Rebels thought it belonged to other side and shot it down.

 

Malaysian Airlines was silly for flying anywhere near that area they should have diverted west or east to avoid the border area.

 

Still inexcusable 

 

Up until yesterday the Ukrainian rebels only had the short range stingers to shoot down aircraft. There would have been no reason to divert a passenger plane flying at 33,000 feet if the Russians had not supplied the Buk missile system to the rebels. This is probably going to be the tipping point and harsher sanctions will be applied to Russia and the Ukrainian rebels.

[Snick]

They shot down a Ukrainian military  plane a few days ago at high altitude. And who knows what and when they got stuff from the Russians.

[Snick]

ps. I said earlier it was one of the 3 sides, since I have no evidence, but odds are it was the separatists. 

[rxpharm]

Well, we agree on that part - as the Ukrainian air traffic control radar would have known it was a civilian passenger plane.

 

The Monday report of the Ukrainian military transport being shot down at high altitude was being treated skeptically by some aviation experts as not all the evidence was released by the Ukraine. Ukraine claimed the missile originated from the Russian side of the border - but now the Buk missile system is in Ukrainian rebel held territory. This makes it most probable that the rebels or Russians fired the missile.

 

As for diverting due to unsafe airspace  - usually this is done by ICAO in conjunction with the country in question. Earlier Ukraine and ICAO had warned that air space over Crimea was unsafe, but this was not extended to the other border regions of Eastern Ukraine.

[seven]

The media here says separatists have  enough missile power to shoot down this aircraft.

[pdogg]

 

Earlier today, Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was shot down over Eastern Ukraine, killing all 295 people on board. Following Ukraine's ouster of Russian-backed President Viktor Yanukovich, and the subsequent seizure of Crimea from Ukraine by Russia, a violent and armed separatist movement emerged in Eastern Ukraine, centered around the city of Donetsk. These Donetsk rebels, with help from a certain foreign backer, have successfully shot down several Ukrainian military aircraft. Now, it looks like intentionally or not, they destroyed a civilian aircraft.

Previously, the Donetsk rebels used Man Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS) to shoot down Ukrainian military attack helicopters, surveillance aircraft, military cargo planes, and other aircraft. But in this case, instead of a MANPADS, it's likely a larger anti-air missile shot down the airliner. The cargo plane was shot down near an airport. The Hind helicopters shot down can't fly above 15,000 feet, and typically operate at less than half that altitude. The An-30 surveillance plane can fly higher than both, but at the time it was hit still flying low enough for the small anti-air missile to get it.

Infantry firing at airplanes is as old as using airplanes in war, but anti-air missiles for infantry really got their start in the 1950s, with the United States' Red Eye missile. The Red Eye could hit targets almost 3 miles away, but only if they were below 9000 feet in elevation. Since then, countries developed many newer and better MANPADS systems, but the fundamental constraint remained: there is only so high a shoulder-fired missile can go. The SA-18 Igla, one of the more advanced MANPADS in existence and one the Donetsk separatists likely have, can only hit targets at an altitude of 11,500 feet.

MANPADS are still a deadly small weapon. The Federation of American Scientists estimates there are over 500,000 in the world today, and if fired near an airport they can cause tremendous damage and loss of life. But there are limits to MANPADS, and one of them is limited altitude. When shot down, MH-17 was flying at 33,000 feet, well beyond the reach of a man-carried missile.

Early information comes from an advisor to the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko. In a Facebook post he says the plane was "hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher."

The Buk missile and launcher (these things tend to be paired) entered Soviet service in 1979. It's 18 feet long, carried on the back of an armored, tracked vehicle, and can hit targets at almost 50,000 feet in the air. The Buk missile could certainly shoot down an airliner, though there is no confirmation yet of any Buk missile systems in Donetsk. That said, in late June  Russian state-owned radio news service Voice of Russia claimed Donetsk rebels captured a Ukrainian base containing many Buk missile launchers. If it was a ground missile that shot down flight MH-17, it's likely it was a Buk or something similar.

Ground-to-air missiles aren't the only way to shoot down an airliner. In 1983, when Korean Airlines Flight 007 from New York to Seoul by way of Anchorage drifted a little from its flight path into possible Russian airspace, Soviet jets shot it down. While the Donetsk separatists are unlikely to have any aircraft of their own, a Russian fighter could easily shoot down an airplane. Without Cold War tensions behind it, though, it's unlikely this is the case.

http://www.popsci.com/article/technology/what-sort-weapon-shot-down-flight-mh-17

[ciobha]

I can't wait to here Pacman's take on this.

[Hefe]

RT has already stated, as a fact, that it was the Ukrainians who mistook MH17 for Putin's plane which was flying in the vicinity at the same time. A few pundits have said that the major intelligence services probably know already who did it.

 

The Ukrainian separatists have the black box in their possession. Putin is going to have to take some big decisions here.

[pdogg]

Surface-to-Air Missile Shot Down Malaysian Airliner, U.S. Officials Say

U.S. officials confirmed that a surface-to-air missile shot down the Malaysian airliner at about 30,000 feet based on a partial track of the missile’s final trajectory showing impact with the airliner. The track was obtained through infra-red sensors on a military spy satellite orbiting the earth, senior US officials said. The satellite, however, was able to detect only the final partial track, not the point of origin.

[Guest sustra]

i have a housekeeper cleaning my house from Ukraine. I bought the ticket for her to have holidays in Crimea next august...and talking to her today i asked if she was not worried.....she is russian ukraine and told me " what was the plane doing in a war zone???? i did not realize at once but then read on the internet that flying over Ukraine is cheaper....sky has a cost....so maybe she was right????

feeling so sorry for those innocent people on the plane....

[seven]

 i did not realize at once but then read on the internet that flying over Ukraine is cheaper....sky has a cost....so maybe she was right????

feeling so sorry for those innocent people on the plane....

They wanted to save on fuel, reports say.

 

 

154 dutch ,27 australians , 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians,  6 brits, 4 germans,4 belgians, 3  Filippinos , 1 from Canada.

47  persons  unaccounted for.

[SiamSam]

The 47 unaccounted for will prove to be interesting. Presumably out of the 47 there will be US citizens. This will give Obama pause and who knows what will transpire afterwards. He is taking a lot of heat presently for his hand-off policies concerning Syria, Iraq, and the Ukraine. If he does not show some muscle soon the likes of Raz-PUTIN and his ilk will keep inching forward. I have recently come to think Hillary has bigger balls. 

[Kahuna]

Presumably out of the 47 there will be US citizens. This will give Obama pause and who knows what will transpire afterwards.  I have recently come to think Hillary has bigger balls. 

 

 

I read that there were like 23 Yanks on that ill-fated flight...It is also reported that Obama and Putin were chatting on the phone when the disaster was reported to the world and to the two chatters...I suspect that there will be more chats...All we can do now is wait and watch...

 

And your observation is correct Sam, Hillary has much bigger balls...Frighteningly bigger...

[captvinny]

just hope we will NEVER know about Hillerys balls

[Hoot]

 

The 47 unaccounted for will prove to be interesting. Presumably out of the 47 there will be US citizens. This will give Obama pause and who knows what will transpire afterwards. He is taking a lot of heat presently for his hand-off policies concerning Syria, Iraq, and the Ukraine. If he does not show some muscle soon the likes of Raz-PUTIN and his ilk will keep inching forward. I have recently come to think Hillary has bigger balls. 

 

 

What actions would you like to see America take that would "show some muscles?" 

[Snick]

Bring Ukraine into NATO, that would be a 'muscular response'

[lance2546]

What actions would you like to see America take that would "show some muscles?"

I see it differently, in "What actions will the EU take to hold those responsible?" Why is this only America's problem?

Ironic that the Dutch were reluctant to impose sanctions on Russia, they lost 154 citizens on the flight.

RIP to all the victims.

PS- Goes with out saying that BMs from Europe might look for a different flight path on their future visits to Thailand/SEA. Not that its likely for the pro Russian rebels to shoot down another civilian air liner any time soon...

[pdogg]

Thai Airways announced today that their flights from Europe to the LOS will no longer fly over the Ukraine.

 

They said this could add up to 30 minutes flying time on some flights.

 

I would expect most carriers to do the same.

 

Not something we thought about until yesterday, but I imagine that airlines probably avoid flying over many countries.