One for the conspiracy theorists...

[redrock]

I read a very interesting book years ago about the mobster Sam Giancana - allegedly the most powerful criminal of his day.  Two of Giancan's greatest claims were helping to get Kennedy elected by forcing labour unions to vote for him, and having him shot because he didn't return the favour - actually, Kennedy set up an Organised Crime Committee not long after becoming president.

I'm sure the Americans here know more about this than I do.  But I must admit, I thought it sounded very feasible. 

[JaiDee]

   Sure, sounds feasible.....until you also hear the competing theories about CIA involvement, the Military/Industrial complex, Cuba, white racists who didn't like the civil rights act, etc......so, which group was it which killed him?  Or, was it all of them in unison, working together with some intelligent-yet-troubled loner to pull off the crime of the century and then have no one talk?

 

   Can you see how foolish that sounds and how someone like me would be skeptical?  Until there is actual PROOF of who pulled the trigger besides Oswald, not just wild theories and speculation which are all over the map, I am going with what I believe.

 

 I also take umbrage when this topic is brought up and someone will say " you don't know what you are talking about" or elude to the fact that anyone who doesn't believe these various stories is somehow less intelligent than they are because they DO believe them.  Same as anyone else who has researched this topic over the years I have read accounts from all sides and have formed my conclusion; if anyone wants to say I am obtuse or not as smart as they are because I believe something different that is fine; but from my end I have another word for people who believe all these completely unproven, all-over-the-map fantastical theories over the years; gullible.

[williethepimp]

How can you explain the kill shot......it obviously comes from in front?.   How can you explain why Oswald actually let the motorcade approach him,pass underneath him,and then didnt fire until it was driving away ......?

 

The audio evidence also proved gunshots came from more than one direction....to an accuracy of over 90%.......If  you can answer any of those questions,I might take you seriously. 

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.......I think the weight of evidence to there being a conspiracy greatly outweighs the lone gunman theory.

 

Incidentally,ive never met anyone who thought LHO acted alone.....

[SiamSam]

Willie, I watched a documentary the other night called "The Lost Bullet". It was excellent and dealt with the 3 fired LHO bullets. They name the bullets A, B, and C. The documentary started with bullet "C" and worked backwards to "B" and then "C". C was easy to explain as was B. However "A" bullet remained a mystery since it was never found.

 

I encourage you and anybody else interested to download or stream the show. It is very interesting.

 

Here is the link although I am not sure you can access it outside of Canada.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeye/episode/jfk-the-lost-bullet.html

[JaiDee]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree......

Incidentally,ive never met anyone who thought LHO acted alone.....

 

Understood, but you don't live in the states; from my end and with the crowd I am close to here, all pretty open-minded liberal folks, I have never met anyone who actually believes these various theories, probably because there are soooooo many of them. Which one to believe?

 

   I just took my Mom to lunch and for a few errands; she was 32 years old on the day that all happened. Of course I didn't tell her WHAT message board I was reading, but when I told her about this thread she said to me right away; "People are still really talking about that?"   I told her yes, and she was amazed that any chatter at all is still going on all these years later, as in "I had all the answers I needed to that deal 45 years ago".  Yet another obtuse fool who believes in the lone shooter theory, despite the fact she is actually very well-read and has 82 years of knowledge and wisdom under her belt, she just chuckled and shook her head when I told her some of the out-there theories heard these days.

 

     Yes, agree to disagree, and with no malice towards anyone who disagrees with what I happen to believe. As always, if someone has some credible, NEW evidence not yet uncovered by all the reporters and historians to date, please do share.  Because if all the conspiracy theorists are still clinging to is "well, it might have been the CIA; it might have been Cuba ;it might have been the mob, or 3 guys behind the fence on the grassy knoll; it might have been the military/industrial complex, angry at JFK for wanting to get us out of 'Nam; it might have been white supremacists", etc, etc,.... I'm not buying.

[SiamSam]

I heard it might have been Pacman's Dad! 

[JaiDee]

"44 years later and not one word, not one syllable, has leaked out. Why? Because there is nothing to leak out!"

Hear, hear, Vincent.

 

  Same as my Mom I am perplexed as to why this is still even being discussed at such a late date.  If anyone reading here hasn't yet made up their minds on this issue, please read here for 5 minutes;

 

http://hnn.us/node/41490

 

 and watch this 5 minute video;  they may change your thinking a bit.

 

[JaiDee]

The one major difference between people like myself and Bugliosi and the 25% of people who believe in no conspiracy is that we can name one person - the one who we can all pretty much agree did shoot a rifle out a school book depository that day - who was behind that assassination.  We can say "Lee Harvey Oswald shot the president" and that is that, and we have proof to back that up.

 

   People who back conspiracy theories are all over the map. Not one -literally not even one - has convincingly said "__________ shot the president that day" and have any kind of proof behind it.  Again, just one name, one group, one organization; nothing? After 50 years?  Hard to believe all the conspiracy theorists have is "well, we have no idea about that little part but we sure as hell know it wasn't Oswald acting alone!"  Really, that's it?

 

I do like debating this topic, but I would think people who endorse conspiracy here would be able to earnestly say "I know for a fact that _________  was behind that whole thing".  Problem is, they can't.  And until they can, I will keep believing the side where there IS proof.

[wangsuda]

Ya know, I have it on good authority that the US never put a man on the moon. All the moon landings were shot in a movie studio.

[pacman]

Yes, agree to disagree, and with no malice towards anyone who disagrees with what I happen to believe. As always, if someone has some credible, NEW evidence not yet uncovered by all the reporters and historians to date, please do share.  Because if all the conspiracy theorists are still clinging to is "well, it might have been the CIA; it might have been Cuba ;it might have been the mob, or 3 guys behind the fence on the grassy knoll; it might have been the military/industrial complex, angry at JFK for wanting to get us out of 'Nam; it might have been white supremacists", etc, etc,.... I'm not buying.

 

I said the waters have been muddied & you have just listed most of the ways "they" have muddied them. They did a good job, eh?

 

Before I plow on ignoring that one last neuron begging me not to, I need to state for the record that I am not locked into any one belief about what happened. I have never visited a conspiracy theory website & I have no desire to. I don't sit around with a bunch of nerds accusing the CIA or whoever of being behind every incident happening in the world today. I have read several books about JFK, watched Oliver Stone's movie, have even walked away from people who want to argue about it. I am happy to contribute to this "chat" while it stays civil & doesn't resort to name calling.

 

I do confess to finding conspiracy theories interesting. I have been attacked several times just for mentioning them when I only wanted to liven up a debate. There's a difference between talking about them & believing them. And the accusation of one being gullible can just as well apply to someone who rejects any CT out of hand without acknowledging there is at least some plausibility to it. Or not as is the case.

 

I must say JaiDee, you certainly fooled me when you posted your ignorance of the grassy knoll. It makes sense now but I wondered who the hell I was dealing with. I am glad we cleared that up.

 

I will touch on three things - the first is you are arguing that LHO had to be a lone gunman. I am not arguing against that. Oh sure, I bought into the story of a second gunman on "that" knoll, the witnesses who can be seen pointing & running towards it in the footage, the mystery of the magic bullet that must have hit three places at once, the evidence of the motorbike cop who was sprayed with blood from the "wrong direction", it all helps those who insist another gun was fired. But LHO was a crack shot & if anyone could hit the President's head from eighty yards away, it was him. I can fully embrace the idea that he was the only shooter. But acting alone? That's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

The second is once again you ask us to name one witness who can back up any of this. Do you remember when you asked that question the last time? I posted a list of 70 names of people who were there that day who had all died in mysterious circumstances in the following years. There are no witnesses around today because they are all dead! Perhaps more than anything, it was that information that gave the theory substance for me. And it was after that you wrote you didn't know about the grassy knoll. You say you were being "humorous", fair enough, but it could be interpreted differently. Just saying...

 

The last thing is the German documentary which you dismiss without knowing anything about it. It was two years in the making at great cost. A film crew was flown to a number of countries around the world getting interviews with people who none of us had any idea were involved. There are very few things these days that leave me chilled - this is one of them.

 

For those who don't know about it & are unlikely to ever watch it, here's a very brief synopsis: During JFK's time in office, the CIA was running a very determined program to knock off Castro. They made something like 12 or more attempts on his life & Castro was none too happy. At this time, the Russians were heavily into the Cold War which led them to approach Castro & in return for money, etc, asked if they could park nuclear missiles on Cuba. This led to the Bay of Pigs affair which is Kennedy's greatest legacy. By using diplomatic means & not bowing to the demands of the Pentagon to engage Russia, he avoided an all-out war.

 

Both Castro & Russia now have a grudge against JFK & they looked to see what they could do. The Russians recalled they were approached by an American marine in Moscow who asked to switch sides. He was met with great suspicion & was basically told "don't call us, we'll call you". One story has it LHO was told to move home & wait for instructions but another says he felt rejected & didn't like the scrutiny he was under. The KGB didn't know if they could trust him so he was asked to prove himself. There was a retired General who lived near Oswald who had upset the Russians over something or other. LHO was asked to shoot him. So off he went & took aim through the General's window. A bullet just missed the guy while he was sitting in his chair. The shooter was never found & no one was ever charged. But the Russians knew they had their man.

 

Watching the interviews with people who were involved in the whole affair was amazing. I won't go into detail, one because it has been a while since I saw it & I am not certain who said what anymore & two, some of the allegations & proof they come up with are so outrageous, I don't wish to be attacked by those who haven't seen it & have decided they won't believe it anyway. 

 

The name of the documentary is "Rendezvous With Death", an unfortunately cheesy name, nevertheless, I recommend it. I think you'll like it JD. 

[ArchieBunker]

Ya know, I have it on good authority that the US never put a man on the moon. All the moon landings were shot in a movie studio.

 

Even the TV show Mythbusters blew up this one.  As a matter of fact they bounced the laser off the moons surface.  you know the one WE put there!!!!  Sure they are in on it as well  :-)

[williethepimp]

Just watched the video.  Vincent Bugliosi does himself no favours at all in it,  In fact, it seems more like he's trying to convince people that not only was Oswald not part of a conspiracy, but that he couldn't even have committed the crime!

 

Here's some reaction to his book.  Some interesting points, I'd say.

Absolutely.heres a cut and paste of one of the more interesting comments.....

Letter to New York Times Book Review

This letter appeared in the June 17 edition of the New York Times.

To the Editor:

Bryan Burrough’s laudatory review of Vincent Bugliosi’s book on the Kennedy assassination (May 20) is superficial and gratuitously insulting. “Conspiracy theorists” — blithe generalization — should according to Burroughs be “ridiculed, even shunned ... marginalized the way we’ve marginalized smokers.” Let’s see now. The following people to one degree or another suspected that President Kennedy was killed as the result of a conspiracy, and said so either publicly or privately:

• Presidents Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon;
• Attorney General Robert Kennedy;
• John Kennedy’s widow, Jackie;
• his special adviser dealing with Cuba at the United Nations, William Attwood;
• F.B.I. director J. Edgar Hoover (!);
• Senators Richard Russell (a Warren Commission member), and Richard Schweiker and Gary
• Hart (both of the Senate Intelligence Committee);
• seven of the eight congressmen on the House Assassinations Committee and its chief counsel, G. Robert Blakey;
• the Kennedy associates Joe Dolan, Fred Dutton, Richard Goodwin, Pete Hamill, Frank Mankiewicz, Larry O’Brien, Kenneth O’Donnell and Walter Sheridan;
• the Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman, who rode with the president in the limousine;
• the presidential physician, Dr. George Burkley;
• Mayor Richard Daley of Chicago;
• Frank Sinatra;
• and the “60 Minutes” producer Don Hewitt.

 

[pacman]

Nice post Willie...         

 

Where were you when I argued black & blue over 30+ pages on TLF a few years back? I coulda done with the help.

[williethepimp]

I was there....you were'nt alone ......if you dont believe me,as

 

Nice post Willie...         

 

Where were you when I argued black & blue over 30+ pages on TLF a few years back? I coulda done with the help.

 

 I was there shoulder to shoulder paccers-If you dont believe me,asl Brother Lefty

[pacman]

Thanks. Were you posting under another name? My memory of Willethepimp only goes back a year or two.

 

I don't know how I could overlook anyone involved in that thread. Sorry if I have offended you. I'm sure Lefty will chime in & correct me, he usually does...        

[Tomcat]

Im surprised that no one has chirped up about the " Jews running the Western World Theory". 

 

If they are.. .. not doing a very good job of it are they.

[wangsuda]

You're close - we're all in the Matrix and it's run by Jews.

[seven]

I was going to mention the man on the moon hoax but wangsuda beat me to it.

I don't believe Neil ever made those (in)famous steps.

[JaiDee]

All good arguments Paccers and Willie, and I did read them all, but again you are missing the main point from my end;  once you realize that it was Oswald acting alone,  all these conspiracy theories become moot.  Doesn't matter if you guys come up with more people who say otherwise, or if Lefty or anyone else comes in and joins this debate; once it's been determined by someone like me that there was NO conspiracy, talking about conspiracies is kind of an exercise in futility, you know?

 

  From what I saw yesterday with a quick look on-line, it's about 75% for conspiracy, and 25% against;  so I am not alone, 1 in 4 Americans feel the same way.  Including, as I said, my Mom and myself and just about everyone I know.  If I asked the question "who killed JFK" at a family party or amongst my friends, I would invariably get a strange look, as in "what the hell are you talking about?"  same as when someone mentions the moon landing being a fake. Plain and simply; they would think I was nuts for even bringing it up.

 

     Yes Pacman, I learned about grassy knolls and 4th bullets and conspiracies since I was a wee lad; it's a right of passage for every Yank and I would guess I am as informed about this whole thing as just about any other layman, having read as many Kennedy Bio's as possible, as well as books on Oswald and the great Posner and Bugliosi books.

 

       I suppose whoever was his ''handler'' also told him to take a shot at General Edwin Walker in Dallas 9 months before he shot JFK? You mentioned some "story" about the Russians asking him to do this, but of course there is no proof of that [there rarely is]. Not sure how that would help with the eventual assassination of the president, but Oswald did try to shoot Walker in January 1963 - and missed.  Again, simply a loner who needed to become famous; since he missed on Walker he set his sights much higher and when he saw the JFK motorcade was scheduled to pass by his work on 11/22 he knew he had his chance; and he took it.

 

    I appreciate debating with you guys and don't even mind being the only one on this thread who is backing the lone shooter angle. Again, I think the main difference is I  have an actual name, I have actual proof on my side;  all I am seeing here is more speculation with no proof, and nothing new as I asked for.  You would think in 50 years we would know the truth if something else was in play here; fact is, there isn't - and we knew the truth way back in 1963.  Anything since then is pure conjecture.  I'd highly suggest reading up more in Oswald and not just the various conspiracy angles;  when you realize this guy was a complete loser whom no one would dare even think about working with, you will have your final answer.

[JaiDee]

Teddy Kennedy? At Bobby's funeral?

[jerrysingapore]

But LHO was a crack shot & if anyone could hit the President's head from eighty yards away, it was him. I can fully embrace the idea that he was the only shooter. But acting alone? That's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

 

 

Both Castro & Russia now have a grudge against JFK & they looked to see what they could do. The Russians recalled they were approached by an American marine in Moscow who asked to switch sides. He was met with great suspicion & was basically told "don't call us, we'll call you". One story has it LHO was told to move home & wait for instructions but another says he felt rejected & didn't like the scrutiny he was under. The KGB didn't know if they could trust him so he was asked to prove himself. There was a retired General who lived near Oswald who had upset the Russians over something or other. LHO was asked to shoot him. So off he went & took aim through the General's window. A bullet just missed the guy while he was sitting in his chair. The shooter was never found & no one was ever charged. But the Russians knew they had their man.

 

 

 

So, he was a crack shot, but he could not hit a guy sitting (not moving) in a chair.

 

Based on that, the Russians decide he can hit a human head moving at 30 mph from eighty yards??

 

 

When someone shows me how more that one person can keep a secret, far less the dozens (if not hundreds) that must have been involved in one of the crimes of the century.......then I will try to stop laughing at these CT's

[azza33]

I was going to mention the man on the moon hoax but wangsuda beat me to it.

I don't believe Neil ever made those (in)famous steps.

Always a fun point to raise. Conspiracy nuts love this one. I often ask them what about the other 10 moon landings.... To which they stare blankly back. (Gotta luv ignorance)

Often wondered myself why dont they just move the hubble a bit and take a couple of happy snaps.....(yes im taking the piss a little on that point)

Btw nasa archives has some really amazing imagery on the training for the moon landing..... There is indeed a replica of the moon surface built for training.... Every detail of the mission was simulated on earth before going.... Oh shit.... More fuel for the theorists.... Ooops!!!

[wangsuda]

My opinions (for what they are worth):

Did the US/NASA put men on the moon? Yes. Otherwise the Russians would have blown that out of the water years ago. 

Who shot JKF? LHO. Period. Little bit of JKF trivia, my mother briefly worked for him during his run for the presidency. 

Are we living in the Matrix? Nope, we created this mess all by our selves.

Do the Jews really run Hollywood? Yup, because Christians were too stupid to invest in something they thought was a product of the devil (this is tongue-in-cheek people).

[JaiDee]

When someone shows me how more that one person can keep a secret, far less the dozens (if not hundreds) that must have been involved in one of the crimes of the century.......then I will try to stop laughing at these CT's

 

 Of course, but no one who believes the theories wants to actually address that.....despite the fact none of us have ever met anyone who can REALLY keep a secret, forget something of this magnitude.

 

   Anyway, you and Wangsuda have just joined with the ranks of all obtuse fools out there who refuse to believe in outlandish stories which have never, ever, been proven. Welcome aboard.

[wangsuda]

^Thanks!