One for the conspiracy theorists...

[Guest route67]

[wangsuda]

Fucking classic! Thanks for sharing!

[4:17]

I'm pretty sure it was Hugo Chavez who blew it up. ...

[wangsuda]

I talked to some of my conservative friends back in America. They blame it on Obama.

[JaiDee]

Good to see Dick Cheney in that clip, Rte67!

 

  Real-life conspiracy theorists are always good for a chuckle too. 

[strocube]

"Conspiracy theories are epistemological cartoons."

-Terence McKenna

[strocube]

Just for shits and giggles, 33 conspiracies that turned out to be true:

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/33-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true/

[JaiDee]

Good list Strocube, I enjoyed reading some of those; until I got to the JFK deal, which no one will ever convince me was ever more than one lone knucklehead out to make a name for himself. So them simply declaring that one ''turned out to be true'' with the as-always flimsy 'evidence' they listed is a bit of a reach. Thankfully there was nothing on that list about 9/11, RFK, or the Newtown school shooting......when I see those hardcore righties saying that was all planned by Obama so he could come take away their pea-shooters it makes me want to barf.  Enter "Newtown Hoax" into a  Youtube or Google search and you will be equally disgusted.

 

   Being a yank and seeing these nonsensical theories all my life, whether it's UFO's or JFK or who was really behind 9/11 [sigh], it makes me wonder if we are one of the few western culture's who believes in such things as it's quite rare to hear so many coming out of other places. If you guys from Britian or Sweden or Australia, et al, have some conspiracy theories of your own - besides Loch Ness - which are common in your countries, please do tell.  I'm curious to know if conspiracy theories on such a large scale are exclusive to Yanks or not.

[seven]

In 1986 our prime minister Olof Palme was assasinated. 

 

 

The crime remains unsolved and alternative theories as to who carried out the murder have since been proposed, CIA being one of them. 

Personally i believe the theory suggesting  rightwing fractions of the swedish police, military and politicians.

He was brilliant, somewhat of a hero.

 

 

• The total number of pages accumulated during the investigation is around 700,000.^[24] According to criminologist Leif GW Persson, the investigation is "the largest in global police history".^[25]
• The reward for solving the murder is SEK 50 million (approximately €5 million or US$7 million.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Olof_Palme

 

http://www.leopoldreport.com/JohnA.html

 

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/new-claim-rekindles-olof-palme-murder-mystery/

[strocube]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, JaiDee.

I do not buy the official explanation of 911. Clearly some buildings came down and something hit the pentagon, yet I remain agnostic as to who and why. Though of course, I have my suspicions. As far as JFK, I don't really care. But to me, the official story is utter crap of the highest order.

Just to be clear, conspiracies are going on all the time. It is how the world works. However, it seems to me that there is not ONE global conspiracy that is really in control of everything, rather there are groups of competiting conspiracies.

This seems obvious just form the fact that even entities that are regularly demonized, like the CIA, the Catholic church, Goldman Sachs, et al are not monolithic. Instead, there are groups and individuals within those organizations with their own oftentimes conflicting agendas.

See: LIBOR, money laundering by HSBC. By necessity these were ALL conspiracies. That is, it took a group of people to pull it off, who then agreed to conceal their actions, viola conspiracy. Happens all the fucking time.

[JaiDee]

I do not buy the official explanation of 911. Clearly some buildings came down and something hit the pentagon, yet I remain agnostic as to who and why.

 

 

 Not buying it, sorry.......some wealthy Arab who reads the Koran differently from 99% of Muslims and who had an intense hatred for America set that all up. Yes, agree to disagree, but again your reply plays into my question as to whether we are the country with the largest percentage of conspiracy theorists; I am guessing yes.

 

 I do remember Olaf Palme, Seven....that made big news even here in the good ol' xenophobic USA

[JaiDee]

The ultimate unproven Conspiracy Theory!  Billions and billions believe it!

[pacman]

...but again your reply plays into my question as to whether we are the country with the largest percentage of conspiracy theorists; I am guessing yes.

 

Don't you mean "the largest percentage of conspiracy theories"? If you want the largest percentage of "theorists", look no further than Australia. With a population that is reasonably educated but with a high number who are naive combined with an irresponsible media who love to whip up public thinking, this place abounds with talk about conspiracies. Some days it seems like no one believes any damn thing.

 

I don't know if we top the table, similar arguments could be raised for the UK & others, but the US is far from alone in having high numbers doubting what they are being told by their government. 

 

One of the reasons why conspiracy theories flourish in the US is because long ago, the FBI & the CIA realised the best way to cover their tracks was to "muddy the waters". One of the things I never got around to in our marathon debate about JFK (and I aint going through all that again!) was to repeat an explanation of why there was so much confusion around his death & why there were so many conflicting conspiracy theories surrounding it, is because they were being started & spread by people inside the government.

 

How better to distance themself from the forensic investigation going on than to have all those "crazy" notions flying around which could be used as proof that nobody knew what they were talking about. Once the media started picking holes in the Warren Report, they needed a distraction. 

 

But we all believe what we want to & it serves little point in trying to convert anyone's thinking now. If any man can objectively read the facts & still believe JFK was killed by LHO acting unilaterally, I can't help them. And I don't reject "the lone gunman" theory even (I doubt it but LHO was one of the best marksmen in the forces), he was obviously doing somebody's bidding. Obvious to me that is.

 

As for 9/11, I am far more suspicious about claims of government involvement. The one thing that does raise an eyebrow is how Building 7 collapsed some 10 hours later when it wasn't even touched by any fragments from the two collisions. The official line is there was a burst gasmain underneath it which exploded bringing it down. Seems this gasline was directly under the building, no other building was affected, & it caused Building 7 to do a copybook demolition collapse. BULLSHIT!!

 

I watched the documentary where they showed the fall of Building 7 to 10 building demolition experts & every one of them said it was a classic controlled demolition that can only happen when the building is rigged with explosives. It's worth watching. 

[azza33]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/architecture/4278874

For you Paccers.

[pacman]

Thanks Azza. I accept that strange things can happen & not everything has to be the work of an evil government organisation.

 

No doubt those who believe otherwise in the case of WTC7 will have another theory but it won't come from me. 

 

9/11 seems cut & dried & the tin hat wearers have their work cut out peddling their conspiracy theory. 

[strocube]

"One of the reasons why conspiracy theories flourish in the US is because long ago, the FBI & the CIA realised the best way to cover their tracks was to "muddy the waters". One of the things I never got around to in our marathon debate about JFK (and I aint going through all that again!) was to repeat an explanation of why there was so much confusion around his death & why there were so many conflicting conspiracy theories surrounding it, is because they were being started & spread by people inside the government."

Exactly Pacman! And they have only refined their "art" in the years after. These people are masters of deception, manipulation, murder and every manner of dirty trick imaginable. They have people placed in positions of infuence in most major "news" organizations, both print and electronic.

Well, I dunno if the US is the country with the largest percentage of conspiracy theorists. I do know that we have been lied to for so long about so many things, that anything coming form "official sources" and the mainstream media should be considered with deep suspicion and never swallowed whole at face value. Especially when they are beating the drums for war.

The 9-11 thing stinks to high heaven.

[JaiDee]

One of the reasons why conspiracy theories flourish in the US is because long ago, the FBI & the CIA realised the best way to cover their tracks was to "muddy the waters".

 

  OK, I will buy that, at least as far as things like our overthrow of a democratically - installed Guatemala in 1954,  Diem in Vietnam in 1963 and Allende in Chile in 1973.  When it comes to covering American interests - IE, covering our asses - I am sure the CIA and the FBI are second-to-none at that.  But that doesn't explain things like UFO's and 9/11 and RFK, birth certificates, etc......it seems like people just NEED to have an alternate explanation, that the official line is never good enough.

 

    And I get that.....some people just need to doubt whatever the official explanation is, and it's actually quite entertaining.  But it's also split down political lines sometimes;  do you know how many conspiracy theories exist about Obama? Born in Kenya, raised by commies, planted at Harvard by the Saudis and the Russians, was behind the Gulf oil spill, doing coke in the white house, member of the Muslim brotherhood, coming to take away your guns,  etc.........way too many to list here.  Anyone on the left side who supports Obama would naturally say "those are preposterous!"  but when confronted with a similarly -nonsensical list of theories about George Bush they would surely say "Hmmmm..... Maybe!''.

 

   I don't want to re-hash the JFK deal either, once your mind is made up on these issues no one on some obscure message board is going to change your mind, and I feel the exact same way. For myself I have read enough bio's about Oswald to know he was a loner and an unstable nutjob whom NO ONE would work with, let alone groups like the CIA or Cuba or even the Mafia. Once you realize and accept that truth, any chatter of him working with various groups to kill the president becomes absurd on its face.

 

  One modern-age problem for non-conspiracy people like myself is the internet. Say there are 1000 websites [minimum] dedicated to the shooting of JFK, probably the same amount or more about 9/11, correct?  I'd guess that 900 of those sites are decidedly against the official version; the other 100 support the official version, and who wants to read that boring ol' tripe?  Much more entertaining to read a theory, regardless of its validity.  Americans, and perhaps people worldwide but again I am unsure about that, want the bomb-thrower version of events, when sometimes the easier, more truthful version is staring them right in the face.

[strocube]

"OK, I will buy that, at least as far as things like our overthrow of a democratically - installed Guatemala in 1954,  Diem in Vietnam in 1963 and Allende in Chile in 1973.  When it comes to covering American interests - IE, covering our asses - I am sure the CIA and the FBI are second-to-none at that.  But that doesn't explain things like UFO's and 9/11 and RFK, birth certificates, etc......it seems like people just NEED to have an alternate explanation, that the official line is never good enough."

Yeah, it kinda does. When you look at more recent lies, like Iraq had WMDs, etc. It is obvious even to the common mouth-breather, that we are being lied to BIG TIME. In such an environment, it is perfectly natural that conspiracies theories will proliferate as people with varying degrees of cognitive abilities and thinking skills try and make sense of their world. I guess in technical terms this is called noise. It is exactly what the various "intelligence" services count on--few people know wtf is really going on. Whatever the official narrative du jour may be at any given moment, about whatever topic, you can bet that it is more than likely a cover story. Especially if it involves invading a poor country and murdering hundreds of thousands of their people, just uncle homeland did in Iraq and elsewhere.

[pacman]

I don't want to re-hash the JFK deal either, once your mind is made up on these issues no one on some obscure message board is going to change your mind, and I feel the exact same way. For myself I have read enough bio's about Oswald to know he was a loner and an unstable nutjob whom NO ONE would work with, let alone groups like the CIA or Cuba or even the Mafia. Once you realize and accept that truth, any chatter of him working with various groups to kill the president becomes absurd on its face.

 

Every neuron in my brain is screaming to let it go but like a moth to the flame I have to add something. Do you ever wonder why there might be 1000 sites dedicated to JFK's demise? This story refuses to go away because there is so much wrong with what we have been told. I was going to say there's too much evidence pointing to a cover-up but that would only start another debate about whose definition of evidence are we talking about.

 

I remember being shocked when you posted you had never heard of the grassy knoll. All that correspondence with someone who wasn't on top of the story! I knew my argument (argument? that's the wrong word but it'll do for now) was lost. There were so many lies told about LHO & what a stupid incompetent he was that when you learn the truth, that he had the IQ of a genius, that he taught himself to speak Russian in 6 months, that he was an aficionado of the great Russian authors & composers, that he was the finest shot in the army, etc. The misinformation just went on & on.

 

JD, when you eventually get around to watching the brilliant German two-part documentary mentioned previously, you may also have doubts. 

 

As for the presence of conspiracy theories, I believe they a natural consequence of our logical brain telling us something doesn't make sense. While I agree they all can't be correct, I also believe they all can't be wrong. As shown by (some on) that list. 

[dixon cox]

At least all this shite got me thinking of 'All The Presidents Men', which I downloaded last night and look forward to watching again.

 

CT's can make interesting reading but we all believe what we believe or don't give a shit either way. But like many of these topics, just because someone thinks differently to another it often turns into a tedious pissing contest which ultimately proves nothing, apart from the fact some people cannot resist a pointless pissing contest.

[williethepimp]

If youve never heard of the grassy knoll,you shouldn't even be debating the murder of JFK........

 

 

Here's the kill shot-taken from the grassy knoll ie ,in front of jfk.......

 

 

[wangsuda]

" the murder of JFK........" - it was Obama's fault. The Tea Party told me so.

[azza33]

And here are the same neo-cons using the same tactics of 'fantasy' 'evidence' to justify the invasion of Iraq in 2003:

 

The US government, closely followed by the UK government lied to their citizens, and the citizens of the world, in order to undertake an illegal, immoral war.  Bush and Blair, Rumsfeld, et al, are war criminals, plain and simple.

 

Thanks for the post - watched the whole show and thought it was well presented.

 

Interested to hear the second source (being the major) passed the lie detector test - or did i hear incorrectly? - If he did pass it, bit suprised that was not followed through by the program.

[JaiDee]

I remember being shocked when you posted you had never heard of the grassy knoll.

 

 Paccie, gimme a break, that was a joke.....Aussie's aren't the only ones with a sense of "humour", you know?

 

  Every American has heard of "The Grassy Knoll" from the time we are 5 years old. Especially my generation; I was barely 1 when JFK was shot, you really think by 2010 I hadn't heard of some silly little mound of grass? {Which, by the way, Abraham Zapruder was standing directly in front of, and he said he didn't hear anything behind him}.

 

I was just playing with you on that thread on my old forum, as I do with all conspiracy theorists.  It's fun and always good for a chuckle. And the fact that you couldn't even tell I was joking and got worked up about it kind of proves my point. Come on man,  the term ''grassy knoll'' is permanently tattooed on the brain of every Yank from an early age.

 

  Bottom line;  until you investigate it as much as Gerald Posner and/or Vincent Bugliosi - you know, the L.A. prosecutor who put the Manson family behind bars - nothing you say about grassy knolls and conspiracies will mean anything to me. If all you have is "watch some German documentary!" compared to this;

''20 years of research, more than one million words, hundreds of interviews, thousands of documents and more than 10,000 citations.''  - the evidence needed to put together his long and detailed tome about Oswald, which I read the summer it came out -  nothing you or anyone says on a message board will convince me.

 

Read, Please!   http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/books/14jfk.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

Or go to Dallas... Interview hundreds of people.... Do 20 years of research. Reading sensationalized internet websites devoted to JFK will get you nowhere, do the old-fashioned thing we all did before the days of the internet and read an actual book!  It will be good for you to give up those childhood fantasies once and for all.

 

   While you are at it read Posner's book also, ''Case Closed'',   which it was for he and myself and most rational people 15 years ago. These are actual investigative journalists, one being a former prosecutor; you want me to believe German documentaries, internet bullshit, or real reporters like them? I remember my buddy Lefty saying anyone who believes in the lone gunman theory must be "an obtuse fool",  and I am sure you would agree with that Paccers.  But if it means believing a former prosecutor who has actually, you know, researched this thing to death or some guys on a ladyboy message board who have watched a few documentaries telling me the exact opposite, I will be happy to side with an obtuse fool like Bugliosi.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Closed-Gerald-Posner/dp/1400034620

[JaiDee]

If youve never heard of the grassy knoll,you shouldn't even be debating the murder of JFK........

 

 That was a joke....Pacman said something about the Grassy Knoll on my old forum last time we debated this whole thing and I said "what is that"?, basically because I like playing with conspiracy people;  it's pretty hilarious in most cases, seeing them get all worked up about something they have zero proof on.  Every American knows those words from the time we were knee-high and old enough to hear about JFK and the various "theories" which lead to his assassination. And if you think about it, the term "grassy knoll" has really only been used to describe THAT day; how could we ever forget it?

 

   It's funny, I have chatted with people about this topic for years around where I live, and no one I know believes for a second it was anyone other than Oswald; the only time I have seen otherwise was reading that thread on the old ATS forums and now here, probably because I rarely go to conspiracy websites, I just don't have the patience to read them.  It's always a head-shaker for me that anyone still actually believes all those unproven fantasies -and the fact that none of the dozens of people it would take to pull something like that off  has ever talked about their roles.  People need to stop reading internet websites filled with nonsense and read an old-fashioned book or 2 about this topic from people who have been on the ground researching it for a while. 

 

      If anyone here has been to Dallas and actually interviewed all the potential witnesses, please speak up and present your case; otherwise your tired arguments are simply re-hashed nonsense found on the internet or the TV these past 15 years.

 

 Man, that movie JFK was the worst thing that ever happened to this story;  that clown Oliver Stone did nothing but muddy the waters for years to come, and believe it or not some people actually believe that garbage and younger generations view that disgusting movie as fact. Damn shame.