Hugo Chavez-R.I.P.

[williethepimp]

I must admit I shed a silent tear when Chavez pased away....I watched the BBC coverage and many millions all over S.America shed real tears......it seems like one of the good guys have gone....I cant imagine the same thing applying in the UK when Blair dies for instance,and personally,I'll be having a big f*** off party when Thatcher dies.......

[SiamSam]

I heard Chavez was born a female and the pelvic cancer stemmed from female to male treatments and surgery. He did have a feminine look about him.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[pacman]

Any thoughts on this?

 

Yeah....    you're crazy....        

 

Hugo had four children for a start. 

 

I recognise he helped a lot of poor people but he stuffed the country economically while doing so. He also helped himself to a two billion dollar fortune making him no better than all the other despots who stole while in office.

 

It's instructive to listen to those who were forced to flee their country for the crime of having money. I am sure many of them were corrupt or just inherited their money but so many people with academic qualifications fled as well that the country cannot properly function thanks to this brain drain.

 

Venezuela's future depends entirely on whether they get more of the same or they elect a reformer. It's not likely the population is going to elect someone not promising more free goodies.

 

Dumbness begats dumbness.

[CheekyCharlie]

SS loves a conspiracy theory. 

 

Blair just was a champagne socialist. That will be a good party.

 

Maggie not so sure she believed in what she did with a passion. She broke the labour unions strangling the country and gave every man & woman on the street a belief and a chance to make better for themselves. There's nothing wrong with the ethos of hard work brings rewards, rather than claiming off the system. Somebody has to pay & look at us now after another labour reign ................

 

Oh I miss LOS I would be half way through my trip. Sod this bloody downturn everywhere.

[williethepimp]

Yeah....    you're crazy....        

 

Hugo had four children for a start. 

 

I recognise he helped a lot of poor people but he stuffed the country economically while doing so. He also helped himself to a two billion dollar fortune making him no better than all the other despots who stole while in office.

Dont believe a word of it.....where did ya get that one from paccers?

Stuffed the country ? As far as I can see ,he gave the oil wealth to the poor people.....seems like the right thing to do.......The poor people in the UK never saw a bean from the North sea oil  .....and now its all (virtually ) gone....

[pacman]

Dont believe a word of it.....where did ya get that one from paccers?

 

There's never been any secret about Chavez & the corrupt regime he supported. I only read the two billion dollar figure yesterday. I just googled & found several references to two billion, some news sites have it as a billion plus. And his cronies were into it too.

 

It's on the Internet....     how could that be wrong?          

 

Stuffed the country ? As far as I can see ,he gave the oil wealth to the poor people.....seems like the right thing to do.......

 

Venezuela is an economic basket case. He certainly handed money to the poor & I don't argue that is a crime but you don't make the weak strong by making the strong weak. And all those poor, they are still clamouring for more. There hasn't been the reform needed to avoid poverty in the future. Chavez just made sure his voting bloc would stick with him forever.

 

It's the classic case of how democracy defeats itself. Bribe enough of the population & the whole system fails. 

 

I have talked to Venezuelan ex-pats & they despair what has happened to their country. 

 

The poor people in the UK never saw a bean from the North sea oil  .....and now its all (virtually ) gone....

 

The windfall revenues from the North Sea oil sure came in handy for many years for helping to balance the budget & pay for services. Today without it the country has run up three trillion pounds of national debt. 

 

So the poor did benefit from the oil wealth, they just didn't have it handed to them. That, IMO, would have been a disaster. It would have triggered massive inflation which always hurts those with the least the most.

 

Remember the saying - be careful what you wish for.

[Jimslim]

 Bribe enough of the population & the whole system fails. 

 

He didn't bribe anyone he redistributed the wealth of the country to improve the lot of the poor .

 

A shame a few more wouldn't take a leaf out of his book and the world would be a better place instead of the brutal system we have at the moment that causes poverty , famine and wars to enrich the few .

 

Whilst I didn't agree with Chavez's brand of socialism or his support for some Middle Eastern dictators he refused to bow to the mighty Imperialists and their neo liberal policies .

 

I know which side that leaves me on .

[Tomcat]

Call me cynical but all these Socialist Dictators have fortunes stashed from what i read. If you live under Socialism just make sure your at the top of the food chain

 

I spend some time in China and i heard enough bullshit there to last a lifetime. How they can still claim to be Communist is beyond me

[ArchieBunker]

I guess it all depends on your world view how you would view Chavez.  Some people just love him for the fact that he stuck his finger in Americas eye at every opportunity.  Lets face it IN SPITE of Venezuelas abundance of natural resources, the place is still a shithole and an economic basket case. If Chavez played Robin Hood and redistributed wealth to the countrys poor and downtrodden, I suspect he did a rather shitty job.  There is still widespread poverty and the crime rate is out of control. 

 

Who knows how much Chavez and his party cronies have squirreled away.  I would suspect millions.  You know one is judged not only by who your enemies are but also who your friends are.  Two Hollywood nutjobs, Sean Penn and Danny Glover, were huge Chavez supporters. I feel quite comfortable taking the opposite side of any issue that those jerks might take.

 

Just saying.......

[strocube]

He didn't bribe anyone he redistributed the wealth of the country to improve the lot of the poor .

 

A shame a few more wouldn't take a leaf out of his book and the world would be a better place instead of the brutal system we have at the moment that causes poverty , famine and wars to enrich the few .

 

Whilst I didn't agree with Chavez's brand of socialism or his support for some Middle Eastern dictators he refused to bow to the mighty Imperialists and their neo liberal policies .

 

I know which side that leaves me on .

Well said Jimslim. I could not agree more.

I always admired him for standing up to The Empire and for having the balls to call out the shrub at the UN.

RIP comandante.

[seven]

I guess it all depends on your world view how you would view Chavez.   

 

 

Two Hollywood nutjobs, Sean Penn and Danny Glover, 

 

 

 

How very true, and like Jim, i know which side i am on.

 

Nutjobs? You mean their humanity?  I have nothing but respect for these guys.

[ArchieBunker]

How very true, and like Jim, i know which side i am on.

 

Nutjobs? You mean their humanity?  I have nothing but respect for these guys.

 

In my opinion, they are nut jobs.  Some of the stuff they have come out with throughout the years have been downright nutty......

[pacman]

He didn't bribe anyone he redistributed the wealth of the country to improve the lot of the poor .

 

Politicians offer bribes all the time when they promise redistribution of the wealth. That's what I was referring to. But I don't have a problem with a dictator wanting to redress the treatment of the less advantaged. It's a noble thing but I am too cynical to think that Hugo was a saint with no concern for himself or his army of enforcers who allowed him to stay there.

 

A shame a few more wouldn't take a leaf out of his book and the world would be a better place instead of the brutal system we have at the moment that causes poverty , famine and wars to enrich the few .

 

   God love ya Jim! You're my favourite Marxist. 

 

Call me cynical but all these Socialist Dictators have fortunes stashed from what i read. If you live under Socialism just make sure your at the top of the food chain

 

I spend some time in China and i heard enough bullshit there to last a lifetime. How they can still claim to be Communist is beyond me

 

Wash your mouth out TC. I sentence you to a night out with Slimjim. As for China's claims, they have a new name for themself these days - something like Capitalism with a Communist heart. It seems to be working quite well. For the country that is, still not so great for their 400 million poor & dispossessed.

 

Lets face it IN SPITE of Venezuelas abundance of natural resources, the place is still a shithole and an economic basket case. If Chavez played Robin Hood and redistributed wealth to the countrys poor and downtrodden, I suspect he did a rather shitty job.  There is still widespread poverty and the crime rate is out of control. 

 

During Chavez's time, Venezuela earned over a trillion dollars in oil income. That's a million million. And what's to show for it? High inflation, high murder rate & a fractured society. It may be better now than it was for the poor of the country but at what price? 

 

Chavez is another who leaves a mixed legacy. Loved by the underclass, reviled by the professionals. 

[williethepimp]

Politicians offer bribes all the time when they promise redistribution of the wealth. That's what I was referring to. But I don't have a problem with a dictator wanting to redress the treatment of the less advantaged. It's a noble thing but I am too cynical to think that Hugo was a saint with no concern for himself or his army of enforcers who allowed him to stay there.

 

 

 

During Chavez's time, Venezuela earned over a trillion dollars in oil income. That's a million million. And what's to show for it? High inflation, high murder rate & a fractured society. It may be better now than it was for the poor of the country but at what price? 

 

Chavez is another who leaves a mixed legacy. Loved by the underclass, reviled by the professionals. 

You sound like you been overdosing on Fox  News again paccers.......you're eating all their bullshit up with a big spoon.....Find me one piece of hard evidence that Chavez embezzled millions as you claim.....

[Tomcat]

Chavez Socialism was not old fashioned European based style but more like like Peron. Sitting on all that oil i would be amazed if corruption and cronyism on a massive scale had not taken place. Anyone want to bet on it. 

 

Time will tell.

 

I was reading about Ghandi the other day . It seems like his Halo has come after revelations that in South Africa he actually complained about Coloreds in the same Queue as him at the post office. And thats for starters... another guy that was just about himself

[pacman]

You sound like you been overdosing on Fox  News again paccers.......you're eating all their bullshit up with a big spoon.....Find me one piece of hard evidence that Chavez embezzled millions as you claim.....

 

Hard evidence? Where would I find that & what would suffice? A copy of his Swiss bank account perhaps?

 

I can't prove it, all I can do is quote from the news articles that refer to the money he is alleged to have stolen. Some talk about a billion dollars, others mention two billion. For a number of writers to come up with the same story one presumes they had some information to go on. It's all couched in terms of "alleged" because even they wouldn't have exact facts. But the story is going  around & where there's smoke, there's fire. Usually.

 

And as far as I know this isn't a beat-up by Fox News. Though it is the sort of thing they love & I'm sure they repeat it. I can't stand Faux News & I am certainly not one of their fanboys. Their deliberate distortions & twisting of facts are repugnant to me.

 

Like all these stories, the truth will come out. It may take a long time & in Hugo's case, those who know will be keen not to despoil his reputation. And it is a good reputation, I never suggested that Chavez didn't deserve it. Millions of grateful poor mourning their one ruler who gave them a break. 

 

Let's hope the next dictator who takes the reigns in Venezuela offers more of the same as well as allowing the exiles to return so the country can repair itself. Somehow I doubt that's going to happen but we can only hope.

[strocube]

Let's hope the Venezuelan people are able to get on with things without further depredations/coups/plots/assassinations and various and sundry scams by The Empire.

[johnlbx]

Good Riddance to bad Rubbish.

Burn in Hell for all eternity Hugo.

[williethepimp]

Good Riddance to bad Rubbish.

Burn in Hell for all eternity Hugo.

Strange to have such a strong opinion of a person who you know (obviously) nothing about....are you perhaps part of the millionaire Venezuelan diaspora ,who regularly appear on the right wing tv/radio stations denouncing him....or are you simply trolling?

[Rickshaw]

 

Let's hope the next dictator who takes the reigns in Venezuela

 

He was no dictator. He was an elected leader - elected three times if memory serves - in elections which were largely democratic and largely fraud free. He was loved by most of his people.

 

We in the West appear to have the view that democracy is really only democratic if the country concerned elects an government friendly to us. It ain't the case. Democracy means that the Government is put to elections every five years or so and if the party that wins sees fit to follow paths which are not in our interests, it is still democratic and the leader is not a dictator, but the leader of his or her country.

[Lefty]

I heard Chavez was born a female and the pelvic cancer stemmed from female to male treatments and surgery. He did have a feminine look about him.

 

Any thoughts on this?

Yes. Put down the crack pipe, and slowly back away.  The nice men in the white coats will be coming soon to put you back in the straight jacket before putting you in a comfy padded room where you can no longer harm yourself. 

[Lefty]

Thank you Willie, Jimslim, Seven and Rickshaw for your intelligent posts. I agree with you all. 

[johnlbx]

Not doubt you Chavez lovers were equally sad when Gaddafi was killed. Hugo said of him: "We shall remember Gaddafi our whole lives as a great fighter, a revolutionary and a martyr."

I'm sure you'll cry a bit when Fidel Castro finally kicks off (if he's really still alive). He did so much for the people of Cuba. That's a regular paradise.

[Tomcat]

He was no dictator. He was an elected leader - elected three times if memory serves - in elections which were largely democratic and largely fraud free. He was loved by most of his people.

 

We in the West appear to have the view that democracy is really only democratic if the country concerned elects an government friendly to us. It ain't the case. Democracy means that the Government is put to elections every five years or so and if the party that wins sees fit to follow paths which are not in our interests, it is still democratic and the leader is not a dictator, but the leader of his or her country.

 

 

- in elections which were largely democratic and largely fraud free. He was loved by most of his people.

 

We in the West appear to have the view that democracy is really only democratic if the country concerned elects an government friendly to us. It ain't the case. Democracy means that the Government is put to elections every five years or so and if the party that wins sees fit to follow paths which are not in our interests, it is still democratic and the leader is not a dictator, but the leader of his or her country.

 

Like he fiddled with the constitution how many times to get his own way and in the end coerced his cronies into accepting him to remain leader to around 2021 after a decree in 2008 giving him absolute power. The Murder rate under his watch was 4 times as bad as post war Iraq . Even worse than Mexico

[pacman]

He was no dictator. He was an elected leader - elected three times if memory serves - in elections which were largely democratic and largely fraud free. He was loved by most of his people.

 

OK. We must be reading different accounts of what went on there.

 

Here's some of what I have read:

 

The truth is that Chavez was a brutal despot who strutted the world stage basking in the international celebrity status he gained as a result of his anti-American rhetoric and relentless attacks on Britain.

He was a master of propaganda who deftly wooed the ‘useful idiots’ of the Left — to use the phrase Stalin applied to Britain’s Labour politicians and trade unionists — while clamping down on free speech in his own country, rigging the political system in his favour and presiding over a nation drowning in bloodshed and mired in poverty.

Opponents in successive elections were dismissed as ‘criminals’, ‘mafia’ and ‘oligarchs’. State funding of opposition political parties was banned and the electoral system reorganised to ensure Chavez could not lose.

Details of those who voted against Chavez were recorded and used to blight their chances of jobs, loans or benefits. His Cuban-trained police bugged the phone calls of dissenters, then aired them on TV to discredit these critics.

 

It doesn't sound like Nirvana to me. Is anyone suggesting this stuff never happened? This is not my idea of democracy. Picking between a dictator or a 'brutal despot', does it matter, the guy was a criminal who helped the poor. Should that exonerate him for destroying his country?

 

And I do acknowledge that helping the poor is his big legacy for which he will always be remembered. I don't criticise that but I don't support his beatification either.