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1 hour ago, rxpharm said:

There have been some preliminary findings released and it looks like the conclusion is that COVID 19 resulted from the wildlife trade in China that were exposed to bats carrying the virus. This is similar to other pandemics that have started in the past, and those which will likely happen in the future. The official report should be out soon. If you and many others continue to promulgate this conspiracy theory, preventative measures that need to taken in other areas of the world that are possible pandemic originating centers may be delayed, as the desire for revenge and punishment divert will, resources and action to solve the real risks of pandemic causes.

I respect you a lot RxPharm....we have connected years ago on other Forums.

So this is a discussion.

First, I have always said very clearly I believe this is an accidental leak. The virus almost brought down the CCP in China during its early days. It was not intentional.

Second, based on that, this is not a conspiracy theory. It's a negligence theory. This is not the first time China's negligence has resulted in the sickness and deaths of many people.... such as tainted toothpaste and milk powder for babies that is stepped with toxic chemicals that add protein in a cheaper but lethal way. That's China. 

Third, this virus has adapted very well to humans and its degree of virulence is unmatched in the past 100 years. It is super contagious and attacks organs with alarming accuracy. This is not an evolutionary development that "came from wild life trade." The way a virus gets to this level in its debut is through gain function mutation or some other form of engineering. Nature has an ecosystem and things develop over time. This ravaged the world in months.

 

The point of holding China accountable is not for revenge. It's because they will do it again and again and again if not punished severely. Remember, there is nuclear, crisper babies, hydrogen, AI, and so many technologies they are fucking around with without a care for safety. Hence the massive shit show the world is in today.

 this is a precursor for things to come..... 

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5 hours ago, rxpharm said:

Yes, we do disagree, and yet you have jumped to the conclusion that I am a China apologist or supporter. There is no doubt China is a bad actor, their actions in trying to expand their influence in Asia/Pacific and Africa are just as disgusting as the US and many European countries did in their pasts.

You seem to be "salivating" at the prospect of revenge on China, accepting as fact a lot of things that remain conjecture without firm proof. If those things make you feel better and comforted in your beliefs, fine.

I am happy that there are more sanctions arising against China for their actions regarding the Uyghurs, and for their cavalier treatment of expats in China as political pawns. What I am not happy is wholesale zealous propaganda of a conspiracy theory that remains unproven.

It is so easy for you to toss around words denigrating WHO - when you seem not to understand how they operate. WHO is a consultative agency = they cannot force governments to follow their policies and recommendations. It works best when countries engage and participate - so what happened when the US withdrew at the beginning of Trump's term? Of course US influence diminishes.

Can you imagine if there was an investigation in the US of a virus lab - do you honestly think they would be totally transparent and provide all their documentation, samples etc? The WHO investigation is the ONLY way we will get any idea of what happened other than starting a war - which seems to be what you are angling at for "revenge" against China for their "deliberate" release of a bio weapon.

There have been some preliminary findings released and it looks like the conclusion is that COVID 19 resulted from the wildlife trade in China that were exposed to bats carrying the virus. This is similar to other pandemics that have started in the past, and those which will likely happen in the future. The official report should be out soon. If you and many others continue to promulgate this conspiracy theory, preventative measures that need to taken in other areas of the world that are possible pandemic originating centers may be delayed, as the desire for revenge and punishment divert will, resources and action to solve the real risks of pandemic causes.

 I agree for most of this post. However, China's influence over WHO started before D. Trump withdrew the US participation and the  US withdrawal was an opportunity for China to increase their influence easily and rapidly. 

There might be another origin for the virus. As experts explained after the "cohort" study they believe that COV SARS2 existed in before 2019 since "an ancerster of COV SARS 2" was found in China in 2013. After several mutations, the virus became a weak version of COV SARS 2 and eventually a more virulent strain started to spread an kill.  

Regarding function gains. scientists behaved like the sorcerer's apprentice. I don't have names but a press investigator found out that function gains were practiced in the P4 lab in Wuhan in collaboration with an American scientist who actually developped function gains. The American scientist refused all kind of interview to provide explainations. Scientists here think that function gains are useless (and stupid). If the Chinese lady searcher had to explain what she did, the American scientist is likely to be held as responsible as well. 

After the fire burned the city, the most uregnt is not to decide to execute some one but to make sure the fire is out, then find a way to rebuild and also to avoid doing the same mistake again. 
On another point of view, for those who don't like China, instead of waiting for a war, governmental sanctions  or a boycott, the first action to do is to stop purchasing Chinese products and support companies like H&M having stopped producing in Xinjiang. 

 

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5 minutes ago, P&G said:

the first action to do is to stop purchasing Chinese products and support companies like H&M having stopped producing in Xinjiang. 

Very well said. Many here have. You don't see as much plastic crap made in china anymore here, and this is just the beginning.

 I respect Australia and UK for stepping up. The only thing they understand is to hit them where it hurts and thats financially.

Its not political for me, more the capitalism aspect. As usual, when ex commies get a taste of capitalism its unbelievably tasteless. Just look at Russia.

Nouveaux riches is a horrible kind.

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1 hour ago, seven said:

Very well said. Many here have. You don't see as much plastic crap made in china anymore here, and this is just the beginning.

 I respect Australia and UK for stepping up. The only thing they understand is to hit them where it hurts and thats financially.

Its not political for me, more the capitalism aspect. As usual, when ex commies get a taste of capitalism its unbelievably tasteless. Just look at Russia.

Nouveaux riches is a horrible kind.

Totally right!

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7 hours ago, The-Sith said:

The point of holding China accountable is not for revenge. It's because they will do it again and again and again if not punished severely. Remember, there is nuclear, crisper babies, hydrogen, AI, and so many technologies they are fucking around with without a care for safety.

Exactly. As long as they can make money on something they will. Screw moral, theres money to be made.

Look at the exploitation of Sihanoukville, Cambodia. It's disgusting really. 

The boat stuck in Suez canal loaded with third-rate junk merchandise is from where? Suplies! 

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11 hours ago, seven said:

Very well said. Many here have. You don't see as much plastic crap made in china anymore here, and this is just the beginning.

 I respect Australia and UK for stepping up. The only thing they understand is to hit them where it hurts and thats financially.

Its not political for me, more the capitalism aspect. As usual, when ex commies get a taste of capitalism its unbelievably tasteless. Just look at Russia.

Nouveaux riches is a horrible kind.

 

I don't mean we have to hit them. It makes no sense since it's a hateful action. We'd better be smarter in defensive attitudes. China has been very agressive with Western countries since  Xi Jinping came to power. They understood very well the mechanism or "market economy" including market economy regulated by social democrats rules and they aim at dominating our economies. We just shouldn't let them do. The basic reaction should consist in stopping purchasing Chinese products. This means not only "plastic shit", but also smartphones, 5 G equipments, PC, TV and all kind of electronics. We also shoud stop purchasing productions with strategic components production relocated in China : electric cars are wonderful for our environment but what's the use if the battery production pollute our atmosphere (both in Europe and Americas) when made in China ? 

Before blaming them, we should understand what colonization had been in China. Chinese people studied the history of opium wars. They want their revenge on Western countries. We need to be more carefull before jumping onto their low cost products and understand their culture (understand doesn't mean accept it to replace our culture). I like Chinese people as long  they are educated and don't look for advantages but I saw in their worse attitudes (racism, nationalism ...) the worst that we westerners have shown them in the past. 

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5 hours ago, BigTel said:

"Never has a truer word been spoken,"

Selective quotation truly the action of a noble and enlightened person.

My original statement:

Quote

Yes, we do disagree, and yet you have jumped to the conclusion that I am a China apologist or supporter. There is no doubt China is a bad actor, their actions in trying to expand their influence in Asia/Pacific and Africa are just as disgusting as the US and many European countries did in their pasts.

 

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1 hour ago, rxpharm said:

Selective quotation truly the action of a noble and enlightened person

Try not to get your feathers ruffled by making it personal but you are very very good at the art of evasion and misdirect so please forgive me when I actually seen a comment that was direct and truthful come from you for once.

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On 3/29/2021 at 8:09 PM, ronery said:

recently started watching this guy who used to love china but now makes it sound pretty grim. of course, I try to be skeptical of everything

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChvithwOECK5g_19TjldMKw

Too lazy to post links but 2 other very very good channels are Serpentza (his buddy) and ADV China (the 2 of them together) very very interesting 

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rxpharm, why do you think this is?

https://news.yahoo.com/says-covid-19-origins-study-145144702.html

GENEVA/ZURICH (Reuters) - Data was withheld from World Health Organization investigators who travelled to China to research the origins of the coronavirus epidemic, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said on Tuesday. 

The United States, the European Union and other Western countries immediately called for China to give "full access" to independent experts to all data about the original outbreak in late 2019. 

  In its final report, written jointly with Chinese scientists, a WHO-led team that spent four weeks in and around Wuhan in January and February said the virus had probably been transmitted from bats to humans through another animal, and that a lab leak was "extremely unlikely" as a cause. 

  One of the team’s investigators has already said China refused to give raw data on early COVID-19 cases to the WHO-led team, potentially complicating efforts to understand how the global pandemic began. 

  "In my discussions with the team, they expressed the difficulties they encountered in accessing raw data," Tedros said. "I expect future collaborative studies to include more timely and comprehensive data sharing." 

The inability of the WHO mission to conclude yet where or how the virus began spreading in people means that tensions will continue over how the pandemic started - and whether China has helped efforts to find out or, as the United States has alleged, hindered them. 

  "The international expert study on the source of the SARS-CoV-2 virus was significantly delayed and lacked access to complete, original data and samples," Australia, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Israel, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Korea, Slovenia, Britain, the United States and the European Union said in a joint statement. 

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There is an excellent series of Youtube videos by Polymater that outlines China's reckoning is coming in the future:


The future videos will hopefully be posted soon.

As I said before China is a bad actor - the government has gambled on extreme nationalism (like a number of countries have in the past), in order to maintain control. While their army is the biggest in the world at 2 million and 0.5 million reserves, if the rest of the population, 1.4 billion become unhappy and unrest starts, it will not be able to control them and keep order.

What they are doing now with their hawkish approach to everything is attempting to focus the population on these "threats and attacks" on China as the propaganda proclaims, and of course it follows they will not cooperate fully with other nations.

Political and economic boycotts are not that effective - North Korea, Iran and Russia are prime examples. So what is the answer to all those who say China must pay, must be punished, must face the consequences? Short of war, which some of you seemed to support and now pulled back on, the real answer lies in the Chinese citizens - they are the only ones who will be able to effect change. Pretty much the same as the history of every other country. External forces hardly ever cause effective change in a country.

So then, the question should be how to convince Chinese people that their government is wrong? That is and what the real solution to these problems are.

In the meantime, the ticking demographic time bomb will also force change, but probably not in the time frame some forum members want.

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21 hours ago, rxpharm said:

There is an excellent series of Youtube videos by Polymater that outlines China's reckoning is coming in the future:


The future videos will hopefully be posted soon.

As I said before China is a bad actor - the government has gambled on extreme nationalism (like a number of countries have in the past), in order to maintain control. While their army is the biggest in the world at 2 million and 0.5 million reserves, if the rest of the population, 1.4 billion become unhappy and unrest starts, it will not be able to control them and keep order.

What they are doing now with their hawkish approach to everything is attempting to focus the population on these "threats and attacks" on China as the propaganda proclaims, and of course it follows they will not cooperate fully with other nations.

Political and economic boycotts are not that effective - North Korea, Iran and Russia are prime examples. So what is the answer to all those who say China must pay, must be punished, must face the consequences? Short of war, which some of you seemed to support and now pulled back on, the real answer lies in the Chinese citizens - they are the only ones who will be able to effect change. Pretty much the same as the history of every other country. External forces hardly ever cause effective change in a country.

So then, the question should be how to convince Chinese people that their government is wrong? That is and what the real solution to these problems are.

In the meantime, the ticking demographic time bomb will also force change, but probably not in the time frame some forum members want.

You are right but I think it probably has to be war. CCP only understands force.

Also the CCP has a total matrix lockdown on fear and greed drivers on people's psychology. Any dissent they crush. People are re-engineered there and that has been refined and advanced thru digital everything. Digital communication, payment, social credit and just about every other facet of life. 

Chinese people will not be able to break this. Last time they tried was 1989.

 

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2 hours ago, The-Sith said:

war

I don't see the USA or Nato going to war with China either conventional or nuclear.  China will be allowed to do as they please in Hong Kong.   Maybe if they attacked Taiwan.

No country is even willing to help out the Burmese people although some countries are cozy with the junta.  

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On 4/1/2021 at 4:41 PM, Pdoggg said:

I don't see the USA or Nato going to war with China either conventional or nuclear.  China will be allowed to do as they please in Hong Kong.   Maybe if they attacked Taiwan.

No country is even willing to help out the Burmese people although some countries are cozy with the junta.  

Agree. No war. The Chinese leadership may be many things but they're not effing stupid. A war would serve no purpose but put every country's prosperity (including China's) on the back foot for decades. 

China's big initiative in recent years was its Belt and Road program (massive economic investment in other country's infrastructure). It's becoming increasingly apparent that the price for it is too high - fewer countries will wish to be compliant to Beijing and its foreign policy objectives. There'll be a push back and China risks becoming isolated again as it was in the pre-Deng era. 

I think the predictions that had been made of a coming "Chinese century" will in the long term be seen as very premature. 

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/highlights-covid-animal-origins-china-234748890.html

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China and its neighbours must not only crack down on wildlife trade but also shut legal loopholes that allow disease-prone species to be farmed, experts said after an investigation team concluded that COVID-19 most likely originated in animals.

A World Health Organization-led study, published Tuesday, said it was "likely to very likely" that SARS-CoV-2, the virus that caused the global pandemic, was introduced to humans from bats via an intermediary species, with wildlife farming playing a crucial role.

Tong Yigang, a Chinese animal disease expert involved in the joint study, said the findings vindicated Beijing's decision last year to ban trade in wildlife for human consumption.

 

But the report also drew attention to the wildlife farms still allowed to operate legally, serving the traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) industry and the fur trade - and creating more spillover risks.

"With farms you have a large pool of animals that are more or less genetically homogeneous, where a virus can easily evolve," said Christian Walzer, chief veterinarian at New York's Wildlife Preservation Society.

China tested thousands of animal samples to trace the coronavirus's origins, but the study said more investigations were required. It also recommended surveys at mink and raccoon dog farms, which China still allows even though they are infection-prone.

"Cramming millions of animals together in these abusive industries creates a perfect petri dish for pandemics, and unless we ban farming for fur ... we will continue to play Russian roulette with global public safety," warned Peter Li, China expert at Humane Society International.

SCALES OF JUSTICE

Regulatory gaps, lax enforcement and transnational trafficking gangs have allowed the wildlife trade to continue, experts said. Pangolins, an endangered mammal identified as a potential intermediary species for SARS-CoV-2, remain a major prize.

Pangolin scales were an officially recognised TCM ingredient - used to treat conditions like arthritis - until last year. Though China has since cracked down, activists complain that punishments remain uneven: in a recent case, traffickers caught on the island province of Hainan were given only relatively small fines.

Foreign traffickers also remain in operation. A special economic zone in the border district of Mong La in Myanmar, owned by Chinese businesses, has long been a source of pangolin scales delivered into China.

"There's no real government control there in Mong La," said Chris Shepherd, executive director of the Monitor Conservation Research Society, who studies illegal wildlife trafficking. "There's no enforcement of any kind."

"In many places, wildlife trading isn't seen as a priority or even as something that is necessarily wrong, and we are suffering a pandemic because of it."

China says the original spillover event could have occurred beyond its border, but critics say wildlife trading networks in Myanmar and Laos would not exist without Chinese demand, and Chinese investment.

"I don't buy it that the Chinese are not responsible for these: they are driving it," said Amanda Whitfort, an animal welfare law specialist at Hong Kong University.

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Here's a report from Gravitas about two Chinese generals who have expressed their opinions on the direction Chinese foreign policy has taken.

This was from July 2020.

The question is where are these generals now? Hopefully not moved to a re-education camp.

 

 

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China Uncensored is an interesting Youtube channel that posts opinions of what is going on with China, sometimes associated with news facts.

This video goes over a China strategy proposed by former US government official. The host has a good sense of humor and delivery style.

 

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The Rising is a popular News Channel on Youtube and tries to provide a balanced view on the news. This segment shows an eye opening connection between the US National Institute of Health and the Wuhan lab, and that also gives a plausible explanation as to why there may not ever be a reasonable investigation into what really happened at the Wuhan lab.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

The nation that keeps on giving, whether its covid-19 or greenhouse gas. They have fucked life for us and more importantly future generations. Thank you. 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-china-emissions-exceed-developed-045205218.html

China emits more greenhouse gas than the entire developed world combined, a new report has claimed. 

The research by Rhodium Group says China emitted 27% of the world's greenhouse gases in 2019.

The US was the second-largest emitter at 11% while India was third with 6.6% of emissions, the think tank said.

Scientists warn that without an agreement between the US and China it will be hard to avert dangerous climate change.

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