The Politics Thread

[deepthroat]

JaiDee had a great idea of starting a new politics thread, and inviting some right-wingers like Blue Balls over here to yammer on about why Hitler was actually just misunderstood.

Figured I'd get the ball rolling.

In years past, my left-wing rhetoric has gotten me into a bit of trouble now and again, and I've found it impossible to have much of a friendship with anyone too far to the right, as I'd been unable to muster any respect for them.

Call it aging, or perhaps maturing, but today I'm a bit more circumspect about a lot of that stuff. I still bleed liberal blue but I guess the recent political mess has just showed me that there really isn't that much difference between the two parties, as they all get their funding and marching orders from the same place - the corporations.

The other thing that's been terribly frustrating for me is watching a man I really believed in turn out to be either powerless or ineffective in most of the day-to-day operations in Washington.

[SiamSam]

One of the biggest problems we face as modern democracies is no one is any longer willing to make sacrifices or give up anything for the greater good. For me it simply boils down to that. No one is prepared to give up anything they presently have, or are aspiring to have, even if it means the demise of the whole enchilada down the road. Places like China do it with the global environment and we do it with the global economy. Everyone does it for the same reason, self-serving greed and fuck everyone else. Countries do it internationally between themselves (albeit diplomatically) and we all do it as individuals, also diplomatically with a smile.

It is not about right or left politics. It is about the human condition and where it is headed. There needs to be a non partisan, non self-serving, honest, concerted effort of the countries and leaders of the world to balance the ballasts of our ship, our home, our earth and for us "the people" of the world who are on the journey like it or not.

There is no longer an intelligent responsible vision for the future in America or my country for that matter. The vision of your man, the President whom you had so much hope in has been crushed and diminished by the realities of modern corporate/individual greed and self interest. He is not surrounded or supported with same minded individuals like the founding fathers were. Being human, they undoubtedly were somewhat self serving also but it was checked. Checked because they had to combine their wisdom, intelligence and efforts to build something they believed would serve all and not simply themselves. They knew in order to thrive the collective also needed to thrive. We have lost this vision today. We are too busy concentrating on how to sustain a dream that we feel is our birth right but few of us are willing to earn.

Sure we are charitable and we help out. Sure we go off and have our young men and women risk their lives for what we think is the betterment of others. Sure we send money and aid to others of the world in need. Sure we do all of the "right" things. But we are no longer leaders with a vision that people aspire to be part of. We are fooling ourselves and worse, we are robbing the future of our children because we cannot get our heads out of our own asses.

Our lives are cleverly choreographed by the corporate world. Obama has learned this and I am sure he is very depressed over it all. What to do? Historically real change only came about after revolution, civil war, a true challenge to the status quo. When people are fed up and desperate they resort to desperate measures. As they say, if we do not know our history we are condemned to repeat it. Unfortunately this appears to be on the horizon. I for one do not see any other way at this point. When the US goes bankrupt the world and our lives (as we know it) will be changed forever more. And not for the better. I am sure our leaders are wise enough to know we run the risk of this but it appears they do not have the individual or collective balls to remedy it before the calamity hits.

Believe it or not I consider myself an optimist. As such the above is not a philosophical leaning or posture on my part. I would love to find some hope in the current global and political situation but it is a stretch for me.

Your thoughts?

[williethepimp]

American politics especially is a joke...you have 2 parties which are exactly the same,the only thing that changes is the rhetoric...

Americans elect on the basis of image...if the image is ok,youre half way there....eg Palin and Schwartzenegger....Reagan also....

George dubya wanted to portray himself(or his handlers did) as a tough macho country boy,so he bought a ranch in Texas,so the foto -ops would look good...the minute his 2 terms was up-he sold it....job done.

You elected Obama,an intelligent man,a statesman even..but his election promise for a fair medical care for everybody was stymied by the lobbyist working for the insurance companies,therby neutering his radical,much needed reform.

Your democracy is meaningless when a president cannot put his policies into law because of the corporations who REALLY run the country.

The American electorate must be the dumbest bunch of voters in the civilised word to vote in a retard like Bush...not even fairly ,as the first time as the election was rigged in Florida.

Right wing talk show hosts like Limbaugh have too much airtime,and religious right wing nut-jobs are given air time(and lauded) for saying the Haiti earthquake was god's punishment for AIDS.These people would never get air time in the uk or Europe,they'd be ridiculed by all and sundry,not going to the White House to have dinner with the pres,like Robertson did.

Your foreign policy,especially to Israel is unbelieveable,and any media critiscism against the Zionist lobby is immediately punished with censorship or dismissal,as in the case of Helen Thomas....

I could rant on ad infinitum about American "democracy"...in short,its an unfunny joke...

[JaiDee]

Recovering right-winger here.....I was a Reagan guy in the eighties, didn't like Clinton in the 90's and was a right-leaning moderate right up until about 2001; then that spawn of satan from Wyoming and his retarded stepson from Texas changed everything for me. The years 20001-2008 were the absolute worst years in the history of America.....and this is a country that fought a civil war!!

Not a big fan of Obama either, he caves in way too much......but he is all we have right now, the right has no one to send up there and Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich are a freaking joke.......so, despite DT not wanting fence-sitters or moderates in this thread, I would say on a scale of 1-10 I am a 4......and waiting for results from *someone* to help me lean more one way or the other.

[SiamSam]

JD,

With all due respect (and I have a lot for you), you might be missing the point. Forget about right wing or left wing. That is absolute total horseshit and gets us into the mess we are presently in. Why do things have to be right or left, black or white, north or south? Forget this. Thinking this way puts everyone in a straight jacket and renders them incapacitated to expand their options. We need less extremes and more blends. This world is wonderfully complicated and you, more than many others have experienced a lot of this. There are many different approaches to things in this world and they are ALL right. In the end it is "perspective". Peace, communion, and a healthy continuum of life will depend on a respect of such.

It is not about your President, be it Regan, Bush # 1, Clinton, Bush # 2, or Obama. You could put God himself into the American system as President and He would be seriously challenged with the shackles it puts upon someone to do what we all know is the right thing. It is your system that needs to be re-racked and challenged. However given the sacred regard for the untouchable constitution I doubt there will be any movement on that front. The constitution is the strength of a nation and a people. It can also destroy them unless they are able to adapt it. Do you have faith in your leaders to deal with this?

[JaiDee]

Do you have faith in your leaders to deal with this?

In a word; NO

believe me, I know the system is fucked....it's also part of the reason I am an ex-pat now; I haven't lived in the states full-time since 2001 and for the past 2 years I haven't lived there at all and don't plan on going back.

[Luung]

Pimpy, I agree with what you have to say about the sickening state of ‘plasticized’ American politics, but how could you possibly think that British politics is any different?.. OK, it's a different model, but 'New' Labour just turned itself into the 'New' Conservatives & enrolled the help of celebrities (pitiful). It’s a world in which celebrities are better regarded than statesmen, that’s one of the reasons why I think, as a species, we deserve little more other than to die out engulfed by our own waste.

What you've got to realize is that we follow the Yanks methods, i.e. We go for votes, not issues, we treat it like a business & this means we don't stand up for policies, we hedge our bets & go for the vote, this in turn brings all parties closer to the centre... Where the bulk of the voters are to be found.

Unfortunately, what's more, is that what used to be considered the norm on both sides of the fence is now deemed extreme & considered marginalized thinking??? I'm an old fashioned 'socialist labour man, but that's now considered extreme left... For fucks sake!.. I'm not some fucking Stalinist!

What really fucks me off with all governments of any denomination is that historically they have propped the banks up & in turn the Banks prop them up. Look at our interest rates for instance (UK), it's never a sole decision, never has been. Anyway, this fucking sickens me to the core!

People always rib me & say morose stuff like, "Well you don't live like a fucking socialist, do you"?... But I can’t, I'm stuck in a system that's not of my choosing, yet if I do any more than just exist, then I'm perceived as aspiring to its ideals! WANKERS!

The only way it could ever work is if we all decided to make the change together, both Mark's & Ingle's said this & it's obvious (remember The World party & all that stuff)?.. We need to make our wealth & then on from that make a decision to be socially minded... But people are too mean spirited, probably blinded & stupefied because they listen to the power, which is GREED.

The countries that have tried either the socialist or communist experiment have done so in isolation, so even if any of them had got everything else right, which they didn’t... They were still all doomed to failure.

Sam, your post was worth a +1 of anyone’s money... and it’s the first one you've deserved!..

I agree with you whole heartedly & that was a really well thought out. Common sense, well meaning post; but you just can't sub divide, sub divide... And then sub divide yet again. For the sake of making politics manageable you’ve got to try to get as close to a three point structure as you can, left, right or centre. We’d all like to tailor make politics for the sake of broadening our ideas, ideals & options.

DT, the problem might be yours as much as theirs?.. Our most problematic socialist politician ever in the UK was a guy named Tony Benn, a true socialist (and hero of mine, a Second World War fighter pilot who spent the rest of his life as a pacifist fighting for true & lasting peace). Anyway, he was known for getting well & truly pissed at the houses of parliament with most of his high ranking Tory opposition... He really was clever enough not to let it get in the way of friendships. Half of my friends are at completely opposite political ends to me...

Obviously, if some right wing areshole’s going to keep smashing you with his overbearing dogma, then you’ve got to threaten to ‘smoke the prick’!.. But I personally think there’s usually enough common ground to be found, especially in this neck of the woods

JaiDee, that's pretty much why I'm an expat too!

Anyway, I'm a fucking socialist & proud of it!!!! If you've got any right wing aresoles out there... Send them this way; I'll speak to them

Das vid aniya!.. Too all you greedy, self serving, selfish Right Wing cunts! :money: :nurse:

[williethepimp]

Nice post Lung,I find it difficult to debate politics because I get too emotive and wander off into rantsville ....Im no lover of English "democracy" either...todays New Labour have very little in common with The Labour Party of Wilson,Callaghan ,Foot and Tony Benn.

Blair was all about image,he changed Labour's traditional policies and jumped into bed straight away with Rupert Murdoch in order to get the backing of the media in his first election.His policies were much like Thatcher's.

That's another thing...the near godhead status that bitch has been granted...they'll probably give her a state funeral like Churchill got....for what?....destroying the mining and shipbuilding industry...ditto the fishing industry,prolonging the conflict in N.Ireland,destroying the trade unions?....the latter probably....at least she looked after her friends in The City,selling off British Telecom at rock bottom prices and the utility companies ,privatising them....as Harold McMillan said at the time"she's selling the family silver" I'm secretly pleased she now has alzheimers..(is that wicked of me?)

I voted Lib/dem the last election,only because of their continued opposition to the Iraq war...I find it difficult to vote Labour anymore...I consider the likes of Jack Straw a Quisling...the only Labour politician I had any time for was Robin Cook...

As for Tony Benn,I met him at an anti-iraq war march in MCR...he was with the MP Jeremy Corben....I went up to him shook his hand...I couldn't think of what to say...eventually I blurted out.."you're looking well"....

Finally-I'm gonna vote for election reform in May....there are not enough alternative views expressed nowadays...good point about the banks Lung....incidentally ,Barclays bank,who were as culpable as any British bank in our finacial meltdown have only paid 1 1/2 % of their latest billions pounds profit in tax! When are the banks gonna be made to pay for their mistakes?

Personally,I don't think anything can change ,the only thing to do is to take direct action against those responsible....and it looks like the Anarchists in Bristol made a good start last week...maybe eventually they will arm themselves...that I would vote for!

[Jimslim]

Put me firmly in the International Socialist/ Trotskyist tradition

[Lefty]

I'm basically with Jim on this. I'm a socialist and also a liberal. I guess that makes me left wing and I don't care if someone wants to use that label or not.

Rather than divide us as left or right wing, moderate or whatever, I see us as either socialist or capitalist. Either strongly or somewhat either way, or sympathies that lie either way. Libertarians to me are more capitalist in that while they may have liberal leanings in social issues, like drug legalization, gay marriage, etc, they are basically every man for himself on the economic side. Get mine and fuck anyone else. Get yours or starve since you must be a lazy inferior bum anyway. I never knew of a right winger or capitalist who cared one bit about the environment. You don't have left wing capitalists, just like you don't have right wing socialists. I got no use for conservatives or capitalists, and would just as soon shit on their graves.

"The Modern Conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness"

~John Kenneth Galbraith

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it."

~Edward Dowling

‎"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate." ~Bertrand Russell

"Do not waste your time on Social Questions. What is the matter with the poor is, Poverty; what is the matter with the rich is, Uselessness". ~ George Bernard Shaw

"Laws for the liberal education of the youth, especially of the lower class of the people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant". -John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776

‎"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." ~ John Steinbeck

‎"In every age it has been the tyrant, the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism, or religion, or both to deceive and overawe the People." ~ Eugene Victor Debs

[DownLoLarry]

The extreme income inequality within our countries and throughout the world does not seem fair, except to the rich of course.

But anti-capitalism has not worked well.........look at East vs West Germany or North vs South Korea.

[Lefty]

The extreme income inequality within our countries and throughout the world does not seem fair, except to the rich of course.

But anti-capitalism has not worked well.........look at East vs West Germany or North vs South Korea.

Except there is no more East and West Germany, and largely socialist Germany today has one of the best economies and standards of living in the world.

[williethepimp]

well thats another proper rant from the hound......not a word of sense in it......how can anyone from the North of England like you hound you plastic manc...have a good word to say about that evil old crone Thatcher?...she closed all the mines(in the North)...shipbuilding(North East) and did her best to ruin the fishing industry and steel manufacturing(guess where from).......she sold off the water ,electic and Gas to her friends in the city of London,and sold off the uber-profitable British Telecom for peanuts..(the family silver).....she prolonged the conflict in N.Ireland by at least 10 years,declared war on Argentina over the Falkland Islands,and counted among her best friends general pinochet!

Even her own daughter hasnt a good word to say about her,and I must admit to getting a good dose of schadenfreude when I heard she had alzheimers.....an evil old cunt like her deserves it....By the way ,I did not get my opinions of her from The Sun newspaper....and,FYI, I aint a plastic paddy,but a genuine one....(my posh accent fools a lot of people)

kisses galore...the pimpster

[SiamSam]

Wow!!! Enough said!!!

Methinks Willie has historically and factually countered the Houndman. Good stuff. Well, at least until the likes of Unc and Deepthroat chime in to stir up and pollute the pot. :)

[deepthroat]

I am a right wing conservative .... Nice to see governments in both US and Uk showing some balls by fucking off all them (edit) protesters in New York,

How did I guess that you were a "right wing conservative"? Perhaps it's because that's usually code for a clueless racist nowadays.

Let me guess - you're a closeted admirer of Hitler too I'd bet.

As for the Occupy Wall Street movement, it's simple: when the risks have been socialized but the rewards privatized, there's an inequity that not only deserves, but REQUIRES action on the part of anyone with half a brain.

[Lefty]

How did I guess that you were a "right wing conservative"? Perhaps it's because that's usually code for a clueless racist nowadays.

Let me guess - you're a closeted admirer of Hitler too I'd bet.

As for the Occupy Wall Street movement, it's simple: when the risks have been socialized but the rewards privatized, there's an inequity that not only deserves, but REQUIRES action on the part of anyone with half a brain.

Yeah, that's a real shocker that the hound is a right wing conservative. I guess if he were an American, he'd love Dubya, and some of their latest run of loony wing nuts like Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative".

~~ John Stuart Mill

[KenW]

The Mill quote is brilliant Lefty. I hadn't heard that one before.

[Lefty]

The Mill quote is brilliant Lefty. I hadn't heard that one before.

Thanks. I'm full of quotes. Most anti conservative and anti religion.

Here is another one you may like:

"The Modern Conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness"

~John Kenneth Galbraith

and this one:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." ~ John Steinbeck

last one for now:

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it."

~Edward Dowling

[Patrick]

Except there is no more East and West Germany, and largely socialist Germany today has one of the best economies and standards of living in the world.

Not sure I would descibe Germany as "largely socialist" Compared to the US all western countries have more government involvement i.e. welfare state and even the odd remaining nationalised industry, like rail in much of continental Europe, but they remain capitalist countries, at least to Europen eyes, of course Europeans were non plussed when Obama was branded a socialist for trying to introduce a system of universal Health care.

[DownLoLarry]

As for the Occupy Wall Street movement, it's simple: when the risks have been socialized but the rewards privatized, there's an inequity that not only deserves, but REQUIRES action.

I suppose the Middle Class is not even more outraged because some of the shenanigans are very difficult to figure out and some of it actually legal though it shouldn't be IMO.

Other things that piss me off:

CEOs and arranging to have his asshole buddies on the Board of Directors and outlandish pay packages recommended by payroll consultants who would be fired if they didn't cooperate with the good old boy network. Big bonus for Blankfein which dilutes the value of Goldman stock held in a mutual fund in the Average Joe's portfolio?

But the worst because it deals with life and death is the incentive that Claims Departments of Health Insurance to be inefficent on purpose and drag theiur feet approving legimate claims while people die because treatment is denied.

[williethepimp]

"The two greatest obstacles to democracy in the United States are, first, the widespread delusion among the poor that we have a democracy, and second, the chronic terror among the rich, lest we get it."

~Edward Dowling

Great quote lefty....the delusion of democracy indeed.

Indeed it is true....me and hound are old mates guys,he does love to rant tho...and when it comes to Politics (to use an americanism) he don't know shit from Shineola....I'd never admit to supporting george dubya even if I did...the man's a borderline retard....Obama is the smart guy hound...even you can see that surely.........as Pigg Dogg pointed out ,the had Michael running the Corleone family ,not Fredo.......Anyway,which ever way you look at it,this is a highly entertaining read.....made all the more entertaining by hound's nonsensical right-wing rubbish.....keep it coming Hound....or as your hero would say "bring it on"...

[strocube]

Hey guys, good to see so many fellow travelers here, both politically and in terms of sexual predilections. :)

On to politics . . . I have been a total leftist/liberal/socialist even before I really knew what those terms meant.

As some of you have suggested at the start of this thread, there really is NO DIFFERENCE between the two political parties in the U.S. They are both owned and operated by and for the rich, and of course, that is also true of the politicians of those parties. They are whores and puppets of BIG MONEY. They in no way serve the interests of most people.

Being a deluded fool, I was happy when Obama got "elected." Mostly, I was really getting so much joy form the schadenfreude of it all; I absolutely LOVED watching the redncecks pissing themselves over the fact of a BLACK MAN in the WHITE HOUSE, while trying to not appear "racist." I laughed myself stupid.

Anyway, my joy was short lived, as it very quickly became obvious that Obama was as much a TOOL as the drooling, evil chimp that we had to suffer for 8 long years before him. The difference being, that Obama can actually string a couple of coherent sentences together all by himself--shrub, the monkey boy, not so much. Beyond that, same same, but different.

Around the time of the labor debacle in Wisconsin, I found myself pacing back and forth in front of my computer going "FUCK, FUCK, FUCK!" I was getting way too upset over shit I really had no control over. It was then, that I essentially took a news fast. I stopped listening to KPFK and NPR, I deleted the bookmarks for The Huffington Post, Truthdig and a few other sites as well. I felt much better after that. I didn't wanna know.

Then comes the Occupy movement, this has actually given me hope, and I have started to pay attention to what is happening, although in limited doses. I'm already angry enough as it is, don't really need to add fuel to the fire.

[pdogg]

Then comes the Occupy movement, this has actually given me hope

I agree.

The rules of the game have been written by the top 1 percent of the economic heap for the benefit of the top 1 percent of the economic heap.

It is time for working families to wake up.

It is time to change the rules.

It is time for a more equitable capitalistic system and for the rich to pay their fair share.

My buddy Archie says it's obscene for anyone to pay more than half their income as tax.. I think it's obscene that in such a rich country so many are struggling to support the rich. Wake up! But for starters I'd settle for the super rich to pay anything close to half. The tax code is intentionally extremely complicated to obfuscate how it benefits the super rich.

Why the Average Joe agrees to play by the current rules is beyond me. 80

David did not give Goliath the choice of weapons and the Average Joe shouldn't either.

[SiamSam]

A percentile FLAT TAX for all!

No loopholes. No offshore hidden accounts.

You earn X as income and you pay a percentage of X as income tax. 30% seems fair.

Plain and simple.

Beat's me why people don't embrace this approach. Perhaps it would put a lot of lawyers and accountants out of business.

[Hefe]

What truly angers me right now is the new fad among some Republicans to have everyone in America pay some income tax in the name of universal (poor, working class, middle class) "participation" in our society, while simultaneously working to have the rich pay less taxes. (Never mind that we have taxes taken out of our paycheck & also at the state & local levels now as well.)

And the fact that so many middle class, rural & older voters have bought into this BS that teachers & firemen & municipal workers are to blame for the financial distress of the country is proving PT Barnum right again.

I'm depressed that a year from today that we will probably have a president-elect named "Mitt" & half of the Congress & the Supreme Court dominated by this myopic group.