Hugo Chavez-R.I.P.

[azza33]

Glad you are not blinded Jimslim.

I do think its cut and dried. We are exploiters. (Not capitalist exploiters) but exploiters of people, generally from very low socioeconomic backgrounds.

I know what i write will make most people very uncomfortable but i hope they question their values as a result.

Your follow up comments are nothing more than justifications for your uneasiness. Excuses to make it somehow more palatable but deep down you know otherwise as per your first comments.

I commend you that at least you have thought about the issues.

[Jimslim]

Your follow up comments are nothing more than justifications for your uneasiness. Excuses to make it somehow more palatable but deep down you know otherwise as per your first comments.

 

 

I am uneasy because I know I have a sex addiction .

 

I have the choice to stay with one girl I know well outside the norms of the game and yet I choose to go with 2-3 different prostitutes a day .

 

I go with trannies at home and money is not involved just a bit of fun , I make every excuse under the sun to avoid normal relationships so I can have the freedom to do what I do .

 

You are correct it doesn't sit well with me and I think about it a lot but exploitation is way down the agenda believe me 

 

I'd be appalled if I believed I'd exploited another human being .

[strocube]

Thank you Jimslim, Route 67, Willie and Seven. When you post your thoughts on this topic I can see you speak for me too. Good to know such intelligent compassionate caring humanitarians. 

Yes, what he said!!!

[azza33]

I am uneasy because I know I have a sex addiction .

 

I'd be appalled if I believed I'd exploited another human being .

Sex addiction is the least of your issues here. Ill put my hand up for that one as well!!

On your last thought, do you really think you would have slept with all those girls if they had an education and opportunity to be employed in a decent profession? What percentage of them would have chosen the barlife if they really had a choice?

By definition : to exploit is - make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).

Cant be much clearer than that... The resource is the prostitutes. The reason they exist - poverty.

[redrock]

Thats a pretty sad quote from a gentleman ive met and know is a reasonable lad.

You would be deluded to think these girls enjoy all their interactions.

Do you realise that these girls have basically given up on their lives and pray the next one will be better?

Have you considered the social issues for these girls once they return to the provinces with everyone knowing they spent the last 5 years in pattaya?

Your moral crusading is hard to swallow considering all the cock you've sucked for cash.  I'll assume by your tone that your truly disgusted with yourself and you won't be back to Thailand in the near future.

Thailand is fucking booming.  There's more jobs there than in the UK that's for sure.  Anyone who wants to work can find something.  So how come there's so many hookers?  Poverty?  No, easy money.  

I suggest you're the one with sex issues, not the other posters here.  Are you a Catholic? 

[Lefty]

Gotta agree with Willie.  I don't entertain this sex-tourist exploitation bollocks - not in Thailand anyway.  It's easy money for the lazy wee arse monkeys.  They fucking love it, stupid cunts like us showing up with a fistful of Baht drooling all over them.  I always use the theoretical question; if I was a young handsome man, and an old Scottish hag offered me 20 quid to lick her twat, would I refuse? Not bloody likely.  I used to do it for free when I was a lad.

I'm not sure how much 20 quid is, but I may agree with you once I find out. 

[strocube]

College Liberal Girl is being a hypocrite on this one!

The caption would be more appropriate if it read "Supports Obama for doing the same shit Bush did."

[strocube]

Think about these (selected from a list of 14) country 'characteristics'. Which country:

1. ...tends to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people ... are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

6. Governments... tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed

to the government's policies or actions.

7. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy ... often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

8. Labour Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labour is the only real threat to a ... government, labour unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

8. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - ... the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism.

9. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - ... almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability.

10. ... elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media.

Recognise the country? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? Perhaps you might want to view the original document...

Oh, oh, Mr. Kotter, Mr. Kotter, I know, I know . . . The Empire! Or the US if you must.

Dude, if it walks like a duck . . .

[azza33]

Your moral crusading is hard to swallow considering all the cock you've sucked for cash.  I'll assume by your tone that your truly disgusted with yourself and you won't be back to Thailand in the near future.Thailand is fucking booming.  There's more jobs there than in the UK that's for sure.  Anyone who wants to work can find something.  So how come there's so many hookers?  Poverty?  No, easy money.  I suggest you're the one with sex issues, not the other posters here.  Are you a Catholic? 

Not catholic. Not on a moral crusade.

You have missed the point I feel.

Hyprocrisy.

As for jobs, nearly fell off my seat laughing... tell an uneducated poor person to easily find a good job. Anyways... thats not the point of the issue.

[williethepimp]

Your moral crusading is hard to swallow considering all the cock you've sucked for cash.  I'll assume by your tone that your truly disgusted with yourself and you won't be back to Thailand in the near future.

Thailand is fucking booming.  There's more jobs there than in the UK that's for sure.  Anyone who wants to work can find something.  So how come there's so many hookers?  Poverty?  No, easy money.  

I suggest you're the one with sex issues, not the other posters here.  Are you a Catholic? 

Absolute game set and match..........moral crusading indeed.Myself?never sucked any for cash,but plenty for fun.....am I being exploited?-Perhaps I should charge like some of our more Righteous members.....

[redrock]

Not catholic. Not on a moral crusade.

You have missed the point I feel.

Hyprocrisy.

As for jobs, nearly fell off my seat laughing... tell an uneducated poor person to easily find a good job. Anyways... thats not the point of the issue.

I didn't say anything about a good job, but there is work.  If prostitution was so detestable to the average poor Thai they could live without it.  I've met dozens of hookers in the UK and virtually all of them say the same thing - fucking great work if you can get it.

fair enough, I suppose I'm involved in exploitation. But so is everyone else, in every level of society.  My conscience is clear.  Don't tell me to take a long look in the mirror.

[pacman]

What a loaded question - are we exploiting the girls? Azza has put up a good argument we are, others don't buy it. And everyone seems to be full of moral outrage at such a suggestion.

 

I understand the "easy life" argument, most of the girls we meet in the bars are lazy but that doesn't mean they would be there if they had a better option. It's not our fault that Issan is in permanent recession or if the education system isn't good enough to help them out of poverty. And we can argue that we are doing them a favour by gracing them with our presence & money but I think that's a fatuous statement that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Have you ever looked into the eyes of a girl who has been selling herself for so long that the light in her eyes has gone? No one would wish that life on themself. And remember, most of the girls don't get a choice about their line of work.

 

So who is exploiting who here?

 

In the case of the ladyboys or specifically the Thai/farang offspring who magically turn out transsexual, the parents & grandparents are completely to blame. So often a daughter would return to Issan from Pattaya or Bangkok (or Phuket or anywhere) with the unwanted news she's pregnant. Another mouth to feed, more stress for the family. In the old days, if the baby was a female she could look forward to being packed off to work as a bargirl at a young age. Today the law requires them to be 18 but that doesn't stop kids turning up to work on the streets. But if the baby was a boy, they were in for a hard time. They weren't recognised as Thai, their employment prospects weren't great, they were considered bad luck. All that changed with the introduction of cheap female hormones from China. Today they can be found in every village & by adding them to the child's diet, they soon grew into that most exotic of flowers, the legendary Thai katoey.

 

Now there was another source of income from previously unwanted babies. And the best katoeys are great providers. And they have long shelf life, they can't get pregnant, they don't run off to get married (well that idea was soon knocked on the head), they just send money home till they can't attract a customer anymore. And given that some of the girls we see photographed in the forums are today getting on in years (there are one or two in their 50's, others in their 40's), they can be in for a long run.

 

I don't think of my fellow BMs as criminals, who of us connects the dots about why there are all these half farang/half Thai ladyboys?. But I will not accept that western sex tourists aren't providing the pull factor for Issan grandmothers (it's always the matriarch apparently) to keep dosing up their grandchildren with female hormones to supply that demand. There is no other reason why they would do it! Take us out of the equation & most of these girls could grow up as nature intended.

[williethepimp]

I dont think ive ever met a half falang/thai ladyboy....ive met half falang/thai gg's tho'...........you sure you've not borrowed siam sam's crack pipe paccers? You're becoming increasingly bizarre in your posts......

[pacman]

Try adding something constructive Willie instead of taking cheap shots at me. I don't appreciate it.

 

And to say you've never met a farang/Thai LB does you no credit at all. You have met dozens of them, just because they don't advertise it, anyone can spot them if you take a moment to look. Some bars have about 50%. Go through the line-up at Cocktail & Dreams for a start, the full Thais are in the minority. Other bars have a similar story to tell.

 

I don't mind criticism as long as I am being judged on my merits. I have been around Thailand since 1976, I have spoken to a lot of people & they have confirmed what I just wrote. I didn't dream it. OK?

[azza33]

I dont think ive ever met a half falang/thai ladyboy....ive met half falang/thai gg's tho'.....

Cant recall a thai/farang but ive been with filipino/american white ladyboy and seen plenty of black/filipino lbs around

[pdogg]

I'm fine with patronizing prostitutes as long as it's a willing interchange between buyer and seller.  I have not even once encountered a situation in Southeast Asia where I encountered unwilling girls or sex slaves.

 

All that I was trying to say when I opened this can of worms is that if we had a just and fair world,,,,,,,,, a world where the poorest people had a decent life and richest had a little less, a world where there wasn't such income disparity between the first and third world........if that world existed then we wouldn't have cheap access to 22 year old beauties in Southeast Asia.

 

If these girls had more money, then many of them would not choose to prostitute themselves.  But the worldwide economic system is not designed to benefit all of us on the planet  and I don't see this system changing anytime soon whether we agree or disagree with the morality of this system. However there are economic forces pointed out by Tomcat which are closing the gap between Asia and the West.  But I don't see this happening in other poverty stricken regions.

 

Gordon Gecko said "greed is good".  Well good for some of us and not so good for others.  It depends which side of the fence you're on.

 

On a another note, Paccers, I find it hard to believe that boys are encouraged to be ladyboys at an early age because grandma figures they will be money machines.  But then I also find it incomprehensible that in some societies that baby girls are murdered so whadda I know.

[williethepimp]

I'm fine with patronizing prostitutes as long as it's a willing interchange between buyer and seller.  I have not even once encountered a situation in Southeast Asia where I encountered unwilling girls or sex slaves.

 

All that I was trying to say when I opened this can of worms is that if we had a just and fair world,,,,,,,,, a world where the poorest people had a decent life and richest had a little less, a world where there wasn't such income disparity between the first and third world........if that world existed then we wouldn't have cheap access to 22 year old beauties in Southeast Asia.

 

If these girls had more money, then many of them would not choose to prostitute themselves.  But the worldwide economic system is not designed to benefit all of us on the planet  and I don't see this system changing anytime soon whether we agree or disagree with the morality of this system. However there are economic forces pointed out by Tomcat which are closing the gap between Asia and the West.  But I don't see this happening in other poverty stricken regions.

 

Gordon Gecko said "greed is good".  Well good for some of us and not so good for others.  It depends which side of the fence you're on.

 

On a another note, Paccers, I find it hard to believe that boys are encouraged to be ladyboys at an early age because grandma figures they will be money machines.  But then I also find it incomprehensible that in some societies that baby girls are murdered so whadda I know.

Hence my "increasingly bizarre" comment........

 

I guess we must have different definitions for the word "exploitation".Its a huge stretch of the imagination IMO to link tourism with exploitation.......and then have the morally Righteous make a case for it.

[azza33]

WTP im gonna post something very very soon which should make this unequivocal.... Stay tuned!!! Its not to be missed.

[pacman]

On a another note, Paccers, I find it hard to believe that boys are encouraged to be ladyboys at an early age because grandma figures they will be money machines.  But then I also find it incomprehensible that in some societies that baby girls are murdered so whadda I know.

 

What we want to believe is not the point. You know I have brought this up before & copped flak for it at the time. Some screamed because they took it that I was saying ALL ladyboys come about this way. They don't. We know katoeys have been a feature of Thai society for 100's of years. Who knows how far back it goes?

 

But if you want to improve the bloodline of any animal, you cross breed it to broaden the gene pool. So it is with we humans & it is defying the odds completely to think there would be even one transsexual born from the combination of farangs & Thais. That there are 100's, possibly 1000's of them appearing every year does point to something else going on.

 

Many years ago, an expat living in LOS told me: "you know all these katoeys aren't happening by accident". He explained to me about how unwelcome the offspring of the bargirls was & how the poor parents treated them. It sounds awful to us that they could be so callous but welcome to third world living where there's no place for such high moral thinking.

 

I have brought the subject up with other friends who have lived in LOS long term. Some weren't aware of it, others confirmed it. It was one of them who told me about Issan being "awash with Chinese hormone tablets". I got attacked for that so I went back to my source & asked him again. He told me how stories of wealthy katoeys were legend & how the parents knew to administer the drugs from an early age so the child never develops male attributes. How else can anyone explain ladyboys who have never developed the large hands, feet & skull of a man?

 

If all that sounds too bizarre, sorry, I can't help what anyone wants to believe. But sometimes the only answer that fits is the one that's the least palatable. Stop rewarding beautiful katoeys & the supply will dry up. Simple really.

[azza33]

[azza33]

This, without doubt, has to be the funniest thread i've read in a while.

 

It started off as a nod to Chavez.

 

Became a politcal saga of Socialism vs the barbarism of the capitalist world - complete disdain for poor old right wingers.

Members lording other members for their humanitarian values despite the fact we ALL indulge in the pleasures of the flesh. (please ... you must have had a giggle at that one!!)

 

And It became acceptable to offend others & their beliefs because there is only one righteous viewpoint.

 

What better way to have a bit of fun than putting a hot poker in the ass of the moral values in this place...

Uproar ensued...  Not us they cry in unison - our consciences are clear !

 

It a moral crusade from within our very own ranks.... it can't be - treachery!!

 

Amygdala hijack spreads on a mass scale.

 

Then along comes RR and states "Your moral crusading is hard to swallow considering all the cock you've sucked for cash.  I'll assume by your tone that your truly disgusted with yourself and you won't be back to Thailand in the near future."

 

Games up...  2+2 ... it won't be long (for gods sake i'm one of the worst offenders) ... someones actually thinking rationally here...

 

I couldn't resist winding some of you lads up - you deserved it !

 

And it gets even better... We have gone onto the social & genetic engineering of super katoeys.

 

God bless Chavez 

[SiamSam]

I still think he's a transgender...

[azza33]

I still think he's a transgender...

 

Either way he looked awesome in the tracksuit...

[Tomcat]

helping the poor is not that straightforward.. look at Ethiopia. After all the work done to improve their lot and especially the water supply they now have around twice as many poor in the same position . its not that simple ... i

 

Another example is in India the EU gave around 100 million euros to some province and it was later discovered that they built a giant statue to honor some God that cost 50 mill. what a joke

 

And it goes on. If you want to help the poor do your homework first .

[rxpharm]

Wow, such a wide range of posts! Yes Pacman's theory has drawn a lot of comments in the past!

 

 

While I would say it may be possible, I don't think it is a major contribution to the total number of lbs in LOS. The above photos are of Oil. She has a Turkish father and a Thai mother. She was 2nd runner up in the Miss Tiffany Universe 2007 contest, and also in Miss Cascade. She use to work in Casanova Bar, and then moved to Cascade Bar. She was working in the bars part time, while studying at university, earning money to pay for her hormones, operations, makeup, and support her mother (father had dropped out of their lives). She has disappeared from the p4p scene  I have met a few other Thai/farang lbs as well, but they are still in the minority of the total number of lbs in LOS.

 

As for exploitation, the argument was made they are lazy so sex work is the easy route for them to take. etgohm put up an excellent post titled A Reality Check: http://www.ladyboyreview.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2680-a-reality-check/

 

Basically it comes from a very popular LB named Tanya Facebook page in Pattaya.

"Please! understand and remember all lady or ladyboy they come to work freelance,escort,bar girl, agogo or what ever we not really need to do but sometime in some moment you must to do to pass some happen. We very difference in your counthy you not need to try so much like us for try to be what we are. We need many hormon many vitaminc many lacer many botox and more what you can imagine before you see we beautiful like you dream and If we civilization like your counthy we will also do like lady there cause we have all what nesesery for alive than for attention the man it not importan anymore this 's why you coming here right ? We always need love and We always need money but for me i need money than see love latter cause i eat every day more than 3 time but i can't use love buy food in 7/11 Are you get it now , Than stop if you think i young , handsum , good sex, why i must pay bla bla bla put money in your ass and go!!! "

 

The fact of the matter is, although LOS has a booming economy, there are very few jobs that an LB can work at and earn the money needed to buy the hormones, pay for the operations, makeup, and hairstyles, etc, plus support their families. Also there is certainly discrimination against lbs that make it very difficult for them to obtain higher paying jobs.

 

So, is it exploitation? If they could get good paying jobs, I think there would be significantly less lbs in p4p than there are now in LOS.

 

I'm not being morally righteous, but it is something to think about.