PRE- PAYED SYSTEM IN BARS!!!

[paultain]

Doing a little bit of research on the Stra8 forums, I came across this information;

There seems to be a growing tread in several ago-go bars in Walking Street this year, of having a PRE-PAYED system. Bars include;

Casanovy agogo; Where the mamasan brings out a menu type card with : barfine 600; ST 2000; LT 3000; Super Girl ago-go; Super Baby ago-go; Hooty's ago-go; Passion ago-go; Airport ago-go; do something similar. Not un-like our friend Pook, doing it in her two bars, PookSwan; Pook Soi 6:

There's a risk it could become a growing trend if enough folks pay up front instead of smiling and moving on. Whilst the majority of BM's would adopt the 'walk away' routine, there are enough newbies and non-forum mongers arriving in town every day who won't know that paying up-front is not the usual way to do business. Hence, any place that tries out this model is likely to continue using it.

Apart from the high risk to GG mongers, and LB mongers alike, paying up-front for a LT, and turns into a ST, or a bad performance in a ST, you have no way of limiting the impact upon your wallet. Although Pook is only using this system for ST, it seems she is trying to follow this trend, probably to see how it goes first with the ST, and who is to say she won’t try it on with the LT’s at a later date, following in the footsteps of the other bars mentioned. Let's all hope it doesn't grow over time to become the usual way of negotiating.

It has been disgust, and suspected, by members of the Str8 forums, that in this system, the mamasan’s or the bars are taking another cut out of it, on top of the bar-fines, generating extra revenue. Not unlike our suspicions of both Pook bars, of doing the same.

Some of the members of the Str8 forums have reported, after they refused and protested about this paying up front system, the bars in question quickly changed their minds, and allowed the customer to carry on as normal. This has also been reported by a few LB mongers, refusing to pay up front in the Pook bars, which also quickly changed their minds, and allowed the customer to carry on as normal.

On the Str8 forums, and thanks to the internet, the GG mongers are discussing and uniting, to refuse to pay into this system of the mentioned bars, with the attitude, “There’s plenty more where they come from, in the normal beer bars!” And we should unite with the Pook bars also, making sure the other LB bars in the circuit don’t get any other funny idea’s.

I think if we all did this, it would be a matter of weeks before this system will be thrown out the window. Personally, as the Pook bars are my favorite bars, I would never pay up front for any thing, or in any case. I think that this system of Pooks, will come back and bit her on the ass.

[Luung]

Doing a little bit of research on the Stra8 forums, I came across this information;

There seems to be a growing tread in several ago-go bars in Walking Street this year, of having a PRE-PAYED system. Bars include;

Casanovy agogo; Where the mamasan brings out a menu type card with : barfine 600; ST 2000; LT 3000; Super Girl ago-go; Super Baby ago-go; Hooty's ago-go; Passion ago-go; Airport ago-go; do something similar. Not un-like our friend Pook, doing it in her two bars, PookSwan; Pook Soi 6:

There's a risk it could become a growing trend if enough folks pay up front instead of smiling and moving on. Whilst the majority of BM's would adopt the 'walk away' routine, there are enough newbies and non-forum mongers arriving in town every day who won't know that paying up-front is not the usual way to do business. Hence, any place that tries out this model is likely to continue using it.

Apart from the high risk to GG mongers, and LB mongers alike, paying up-front for a LT, and turns into a ST, or a bad performance in a ST, you have no way of limiting the impact upon your wallet. Although Pook is only using this system for ST, it seems she is trying to follow this trend, probably to see how it goes first with the ST, and who is to say she won’t try it on with the LT’s at a later date, following in the footsteps of the other bars mentioned. Let's all hope it doesn't grow over time to become the usual way of negotiating.

It has been disgust, and suspected, by members of the Str8 forums, that in this system, the mamasan’s or the bars are taking another cut out of it, on top of the bar-fines, generating extra revenue. Not unlike our suspicions of both Pook bars, of doing the same.

Some of the members of the Str8 forums have reported, after they refused and protested about this paying up front system, the bars in question quickly changed their minds, and allowed the customer to carry on as normal. This has also been reported by a few LB mongers, refusing to pay up front in the Pook bars, which also quickly changed their minds, and allowed the customer to carry on as normal.

On the Str8 forums, and thanks to the internet, the GG mongers are discussing and uniting, to refuse to pay into this system of the mentioned bars, with the attitude, “There’s plenty more where they come from, in the normal beer bars!” And we should unite with the Pook bars also, making sure the other LB bars in the circuit don’t get any other funny idea’s.

I think if we all did this, it would be a matter of weeks before this system will be thrown out the window. Personally, as the Pook bars are my favorite bars, I would never pay up front for any thing, or in any case. I think that this system of Pooks, will come back and bit her on the ass.

Good post Paultain, this sort of stuff that really needs to be highlighted, well done mate!.. But I just fear that there won't be a too much solidarity shown from our community, a lot of guys are already paying more money for LB's than GG's has it is, they'll do anything to 'bag' one!... And there's just too many 'lilly livers' & 'two week millionaires' out there! :diablo: ... I just sincerely hope I'm wrong, really!?

I know that you know Pook on a friendly basis, but I think she'll go for the absolute max amount she can extort upfront & extend it to LT's, for sure! She'll set it at the absolute ceiling, No question... All these bars have their little tactics & schemes & all I can say is that I judge by my pocket... Money wise, I've always had the very worst mauling after sessions in either of the Pook bars... She'll max it mate & she'll need egg on her face before she climbs down. :money:

And of course the mamasans will be taking their cut! And I bet the girls won't do as well out of it either... The bar will be taking a direct cut out of the the girls salaries & the punters won't want to tip so much under this type of system/regime & then this will in turn just spread bad feeling! :growl:

I suspect the pre-pay system IS easier to put in place anywhere, where there's far more Falang's who've come straight off the 'banana boat', so to speak... As can be seen from BKK & Walking St... It sounds like a sure recipe for disaster to me & I think that the potential mayhem that could ensue from this could maybe hopefully see a return to 'paying when you've had service'? If not, I suspect the likes of me will eventually get shoved onto the beach & into the department stores.. Or maybe even not to BKK or Patts at all... Come to think of it, it was always way more interesting on the beach anyway. :devil:

ANYWAY, I FOR ONE WON'T BE PAYING UP FRONT... STAYING IN WITH A GOOD BOOK & HAVING A WANK IS MUCH MORE APPEALING THAN THAT!

[pacman]

One way or another, the bars need to restore cashflow. They will try this, they will try anything before they have to close their doors.

There should be no surprise at this news of bars asking customers to pay set prices up front. And speculation as to whether they keep a percentage only shows how naive some are.

They would be keeping 50% as a minimum! The Thais have no history of altruism, once a Thai becomes a barowner, they become (in their mind at least) HI-SO! And Hi-So's can push the girls around all they like.

If a farang bar owner wanted to do this he would find himself in breach of his work permit (if he has one) or the conditions of his visa. One rule for them, another for us.

After successive low Low-Seasons followed by low High-Seasons, many of the bars would be at their wits end. And 100's of bars & restaurants have closed already.

If they find that people completely reject this policy, they will raise drink prices. They will do that anyway but rather more slowly. The thing I like about this policy is that the newbies will accept it & the owner will bend the rule if we don't.

I would prefer to see the status quo prevail but change is inevitable. I have been posting for years about the problem with the Cheap Charlie mentality. Someone has to carry the freight or one day we will find out what happens when no one wants to pay.

Then there won't be a problem with overpriced bars because there won't be any.

I don't like it any more than the next guy but I have been in business long enough to understand. Don't be surprised if the idea of cover charges to enter clubs, etc becomes popular too. IMO it is inevitable.

[Tomcat]

I noticed this Pay upfront started in the Caligula Club, Soi Diamond, around 2 years ago. 2000 baht was paid but no mention of LT or ST.. just 2K . This is the system in many European Countries where they even have taxi type meters in the ST room and if youi go over 45 mins a buzzer goes off and the girl rolls over until you paid some more

anwyay back to WS

Of course the GG just wanted to get back in the bar ASAP for another sucker after i had come

Its a bit to clinical for me but its not going away now.

[azza33]

Experienced that pre-paid nonsense at soi 6 on my recent visits to pook bar.

First time they tried to add 500 baht to the tab on top of price already discussed

[deepthroat]

Doesn't worry me at this point - I saw this in a couple of the GG bars early this year and just laughed it off. I wasn't going to barfine anyone there anyway, but at Pook - that would be interesting. I'm of a mind that I'd just say "no - I pay barfine and negotiate with girl or I'll just go across the street" and suspect they'd probably back down. And if not, there's no one in any of the Pook bars that I'd be sad to have to pass up anyway.

What about the issue of promoting prostitution? I thought the argument always went that paying a barfine could be justified as taking a working off the clock, but they aren't brothels so they can't charge you straight out for sex? Obviously TIT so I guess everything is "up to you" as long as YOU are thai. But don't you think that might eventually become an issue?

Either way I'm not concerned about this for now, just seems like another newbie tax to me.

[Jimslim]

I know in the past that guys have paid the barfine at Pooks , got upstairs and done the deed then refused to pay the girl as they thought she was included in the price , I assume this has happened at other establishments with short time rooms on site also .

As usual though its the bars protecting their own earnings and not the girls , when I asked a regular of mine at Pook Swan did she get the full cut from the 1300 baht pay per view deal she just rolled her pretty lil' eyes .

A lot of these places are run on almost Stalinist lines so I doubt the girls rights are forefront in their thinking .

Most of us guys will not find it too hard to work around things like this but the new guys will get overcharged as usual .

Not very wise when the bars are struggling but when did wise ever come into it ? :money:

[Luung]

+1 JimSlim, you've just more or lesss done the poat OI was going to do , I'l try & get ack to you & Paakman to morrow, I'm pissed right now...God post

[pdogg]

Certainly not popular with the punters. As pointed out above there are at least five distinct but related sub issues here.

1) How will this affect the total price paid?

2) How much of the girl's compensation will actually go to her and how much to the mamasan?

3) How will this affect the service provided?

4) How will this affect the customer's flexibilty as sometimes we don't know if we want shortime or longtime?

5) How does this affect the customer's privacy?

There is actually one case in which an all inclusive price works well for the customer which is the Famous Bar afternoon special, 699 baht for the room, barfine, and girl. But in most joints the experinced monger will be voting with his feet.

[Luung]

One way or another, the bars need to restore cashflow. They will try this, they will try anything before they have to close their doors. There should be no surprise at this news of bars asking customers to pay set prices up front. And speculation as to whether they keep a percentage only shows how naive some are.They would be keeping 50% as a minimum! The Thais have no history of altruism, once a Thai becomes a barowner, they become (in their mind at least) HI-SO! And Hi-So's can push the girls around all they like.If a farang bar owner wanted to do this he would find himself in breach of his work permit (if he has one) or the conditions of his visa. One rule for them, another for us.After successive low Low-Seasons followed by low High-Seasons, many of the bars would be at their wits end. And 100's of bars & restaurants have closed already.If they find that people completely reject this policy, they will raise drink prices. They will do that anyway but rather more slowly. The thing I like about this policy is that the newbies will accept it & the owner will bend the rule if we don't.I would prefer to see the status quo prevail but change is inevitable. I have been posting for years about the problem with the Cheap Charlie mentality. Someone has to carry the freight or one day we will find out what happens when no one wants to pay.Then there won't be a problem with overpriced bars because there won't be any.I don't like it any more than the next guy but I have been in business long enough to understand. Don't be surprised if the idea of cover charges to enter clubs, etc becomes popular too. IMO it is inevitable.

There was no speculation with me Packman, but I get the impression that the reply was directed my way? There was nothing naive about my thinking, ‘I stated that the mamasans/ management/ownership ‘WILL’ be taking their respective percentages, effectively robbing the girls!

Yes, bars need to restore cash flow & the pay up front ploy was always on the horizon & I agree with you that after a succession of bad seasons something has to be done to attract more income otherwise we will lose the facilities that these places provide... But Pook ain’t one of them. She pulls money in hand over fist come rain or shine; she’s just another outrageously greedy Thai... Worry about the places like ‘Obsessions’ with crippling ‘high end’ rents to pay & huge staff bills, but sadly with no fucker in there having a drink?

And BTW, drink prices have been & will continue to keep creeping up, slowly, slowly, slowly... It’s already an ongoing process & they’ll be up on European prices very soon, regardless of whether we reject their pay upfront scheming or not!... And I’m not in the cheap Charlie camp, by the way, if that was another indication of yours??.. I live in CMX & I’ve flown down to Patts five times since early October last year spending touristy amounts of money with tourist friends that I’ve had to entertain... I disagree with the principle of this policy, it’s not because I’m some tight cunt Pckman!

Yes, we have to carry the freight, but the Pattaya bar scene is shrinking & as the more unfortunate bars fall away things should naturally balance themselves out... There’s too much competition out there, get the bar to customer ratio right & a lot of problems will disappear

I know in the past that guys have paid the barfine at Pooks , got upstairs and done the deed then refused to pay the girl as they thought she was included in the price , I assume this has happened at other establishments with short time rooms on site also .As usual though its the bars protecting their own earnings and not the girls , when I asked a regular of mine at Pook Swan did she get the full cut from the 1300 baht pay per view deal she just rolled her pretty lil' eyes .A lot of these places are run on almost Stalinist lines so I doubt the girls rights are forefront in their thinking .Most of us guys will not find it too hard to work around things like this but the new guys will get overcharged as usual .Not very wise when the bars are struggling but when did wise ever come into it ? :money:

Yes, it’s happened to me more than a couple of times in various establishments & it happened to a family member of mine just three months ago in a soapy massage & just how the fuck it didn’t break out into an all out pitched battle of epic proportion god only knows!.. And that's in spite of me negociating the deal first, they just lied, twisted, spun & then lied again!??... The only ones who lost were the poor girl screaming her head off outside the establishment, loosing face to all & sundry & my family member who really didn’t need the bad scene on his first night & on his first sexual encounter in The Land of Lies!...

I’ve asked girls the same question has you in Pooks ‘JimSlim’ & I’ve just had the same, “Don’t ask’ look cast back at me...’Stalinist’ is the word for it!.. And I know we can get around it, but I don’t think the poor old newbie should have to take up the slack, it’s just not fair... Yes JImSlim, when things a tight the old Thai ‘reverse logic’ will never fail to come into play.

[pacman]

There was no speculation with me Packman, but I get the impression that the reply was directed my way? There was nothing naive about my thinking, ‘I stated that the mamasans/ management/ownership ‘WILL’ be taking their respective percentages, effectively robbing the girls!

Relax Unc, I wasn't directing any of my post at you, yours popped up before I added mine. Paul posted at 8.22, I started my reply shortly after, you posted at 9.20, mine arrived 13 minutes later. Between cups of tea & phone calls, I can't think about & write a post in 13 minutes. Others can, I can't.

But Pook ain’t one of them. She pulls money in hand over fist come rain or shine; she’s just another outrageously greedy Thai...

Pook has BIG FACE, she's married to a farang, she has two bars, she's HI-SO!! Everyone knows they can rip off anybody, even the police don't bother her, pay them their 'tea money' & they will leave her alone. I doubt she is making big profits at the moment but she (a Hi-So) could never allow a bargirl (a Lo-So) to make more from her bar than she does. As I wrote, she would be taking 50% at a minimum.

Worry about the places like ‘Obsessions’ with crippling ‘high end’ rents to pay & huge staff bills, but sadly with no fucker in there having a drink?

I despair for the way that Obsessions is run. The conflict between having a mongers bar where the FMs & the ex-pats can meet up for a drink & chat to the girls is completely at odds with a GoGo & its deafening music. But don't worry too much about their rent, the bar & hotel are all owned & paid for. They will survive long after all others have closed.

And I’m not in the cheap Charlie camp, by the way, if that was another indication of yours??..

Definitely not. I have no idea how you behave & I would never criticise anyone else's behaviour lightly. Unc, you sound very reactive today, I have absolutely no reason to have a go at you.

Yes, we have to carry the freight, but the Pattaya bar scene is shrinking & as the more unfortunate bars fall away things should naturally balance themselves out... There’s too much competition out there, get the bar to customer ratio right & a lot of problems will disappear

Not all problems though. The only way the girls will get by will be if tourist numbers return to a level that sees the bars, clubs & hotels busy again. And that doesn't mean substituting thousands of westerners with Indians & Russians. If that sounds racist, too bad, those guys want everything that Pattaya has to offer without spending a cent. They will never make up the slack, assuming that they even had the money in the first place.

And the other problem with the bar to customer ratio plan is, just how low will the bars cut the rate the girls get from one of these pre-paid deals. 200 baht? 100 baht? We pay the same but the poor girl becomes a sex slave.

Think it won't happen? Oh my Buddha, you have no idea what these Thais are capable of.

[Luung]

Relax Unc, I wasn't directing any of my post at you, yours popped up before I added mine. Paul posted at 8.22, I started my reply shortly after, you posted at 9.20, mine arrived 13 minutes later. Between cups of tea & phone calls, I can't think about & write a post in 13 minutes. Others can, I can't.

Pook has BIG FACE, she's married to a farang, she has two bars, she's HI-SO!! Everyone knows they can rip off anybody, even the police don't bother her, pay them their 'tea money' & they will leave her alone. I doubt she is making big profits at the moment but she (a Hi-So) could never allow a bargirl (a Lo-So) to make more from her bar than she does. As I wrote, she would be taking 50% at a minimum.

I despair for the way that Obsessions is run. The conflict between having a mongers bar where the FMs & the ex-pats can meet up for a drink & chat to the girls is completely at odds with a GoGo & its deafening music. But don't worry too much about their rent, the bar & hotel are all owned & paid for. They will survive long after all others have closed.

Definitely not. I have no idea how you behave & I would never criticise anyone else's behavior lightly. Unc, you sound very reactive today, I have absolutely no reason to have a go at you.

Not all problems though. The only way the girls will get by will be if tourist numbers return to a level that sees the bars, clubs & hotels busy again. And that doesn't mean substituting thousands of westerners with Indians & Russians. If that sounds racist, too bad, those guys want everything that Pattaya has to offer without spending a cent. They will never make up the slack, assuming that they even had the money in the first place.

And the other problem with the bar to customer ratio plan is, just how low will the bars cut the rate the girls get from one of these pre-paid deals. 200 baht? 100 baht? We pay the same but the poor girl becomes a sex slave.

Think it won't happen? Oh my Buddha, you have no idea what these Thais are capable of.

Sorry Packkers, bit of a spiteful hangover, 'Unc' works doesn't it!.. I didn't mean to seem harsh, but it did feel it was directed at me, which isn't a bad thing, at any rate... It's a forum!.. My problem's actually the opposite to yours, more often than not I write way too quicky... And the same as my mouth, it don't quite give my mind enough time to catch up... Anyway, in future no need to prove your case with a 'stopwatch', just tell me to 'shut up'... Watch the way 'Sam' tells me off, he's a master, it's a beautiful thing watch!.. even I stand back & give him credit for it myself.

Anyway, we're all singing off the same hymn sheet re: Pook.. And I'm with you on the 50% thing... I've got issues with Pook & her son(?) & I'm not really welcome in Pookswan... She likes to sound like she's listening to your arguments, but she ain't & she's completely incapable of backing down, it's really teenage!... I didn't know that Obsessions was owned outright, sorry for the gaff... I seem to remember something about some English bloke having it, but I've lost far too many brain cells to recall?

And finally just to show some solidarity... Yeah, I totally concur with your finalizing statements

[SiamSam]

Unc,

I have always been nothing less than a polite and respectful gentleman each time I've told you to shut the fuck up. This occasion is not dissimilar.

[Luung]

See, that's how to do it Packkers... Now admittedly, that wasn't one of his better admonishments... But see, he doesn't even get a whisper out of me!

[SiamSam]

Oh you're a good man Unc, a good man indeed.

[Jimslim]

I will never forgive "Son of Pook " for inflicting the full 90mins of the Glasgow Rangers v Man Utd game on us last year , a pain no man should have to endure

Despite everyone wanting to watch the Spurs game the sneaky little shit said he couldn't find the remote :unknw:

[pacman]

Hey Hound, I know you love to be controversial but even you must concede that these "robbing cunts" as you so fondly call them, are entitled to make something for the privilege of running a bar in Pattaya.

By calling for their bars to be boycotted, you are effectively shitting in your own nest. Without the bars & clubs, the whole scene will quickly wither & die.

There won't be a critical mass of nightlife to drag customers to Pattaya which in turn means the girls will leave & the guys will stop coming. No bars means no girls which means no farangs. And it can happen so fast it will amaze you. They destroyed the original Patpong overnight.

Things are going to be hard enough with another deadly quiet season descending on LOS & many bars will not survive.

It behoves us all to spend something in any establishment we wish to last the distance. And this whole exercise where the bar is trying to take a chunk of their girls money, we may not like the thought of one Thai exploiting another but that is how the place has always been.

And I don't like it any more than you do when the boss tries to screw the staff but be careful what you wish for when you suggest we all go out & pick them up in the street or the shopping centre.

One day the GFC will pass but till then, we mustn't undermine the bars. We ignore them at our own peril. The cheap beer from 7-11, the girl we text for sex, these are fine until everyone decides it is too hard & shuts up shop. Then what do we do?

[pacman]

You are most welcome to continue doing whatever you wish, I was not suggesting otherwise for a moment. I believe you missed my point but for the sake of PDogg's venture here, I don't wish to endlessly debate this.

I hate the exploitation of the bargirls, LB & GG, as much as you do, they have it tough enough as it is.

I should have thought through my post more carefully last night because now I consider it, the real tragedy of what this barfine bullshit is leading to is not simply the erosion of the girl's earning power, it is nothing less than a fundamental change in the whole scene. It has always been so carefree where every girl could make her own arrangements with her customer, where she was free to reject farangs for her own reasons, where she could drop out of the scene to go longtime with a guy, they had autonomy over their chosen lifestyle.

When the bars control the girls & can take the major share of their earnings, & this idea gets traction, they will all want to do it, then the girls are signing on to a life of prostitution. And before anyone laughs & points out that they are already pro's, I would argue they are only pro's by definition. Real hookers working in a brothel don't get to pick & choose, they charge what the house dictates, they keep a percentage & they are expected to fuck their quota of guys every month. Even if they are drunk, smell & are ugly. They are cunts for hire & they quickly lose their humanity.

This ploy to grab the girls money at Pook & a few places is the thin end of the wedge. I would hate to see the place go the way of the other P4P scenes around the world. But history shows it will happen. The local mafia & the Russian mafia, they won't take long to figure out how to really make money from the scene. And those girls you meet on the street? They'll just shoot 'em.

[pacman]

I personally think you are argumentative

You are being ironic aren't you? A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. But that's fine, I have been called worse & I love a joker.

and for some reason always like to be greasing up to bar owners.

This comment leaves me speechless. I know a few barowners in LOS, many of them are friends, but no one has ever accused me of "greasing up to bar owners"? What on earth are you on about? This has to be a pisstake, you are being deliberately provocative & I'll let this one go through to the keeper.

[Jimslim]

The local mafia & the Russian mafia, they won't take long to figure out how to really make money from the scene. And those girls you meet on the street? They'll just shoot 'em.

I love it Paccers I wanna be there when you make the movie we just need a snazzy title , From Pre -Paid Systems in Bars to Godfather just doesn't have that ring to it .

Scene one - It all started on a Buddha day when Don Piggdog started bootlegging cheap liquor around Sunee with his enforcer big Lefty ..............

[Guest ringspun]

I must say I agree with Hound on this one, the increasing bar fines and especially if you take a girl away for a few days really knocks the prices up.

I too have met many girls online before I go and then met whilst in BKK or Pattaya, on Facebook alone there must be thousands of girls looking to meet guys, all for a good night out and a few quid at the end of it.

I too have also met girls in Malls and Coffee Shops, if you got the balls just pass them your number and you will no doubt get a call.

If the bar owners do get too greedy, people just won't take girls from the bars apart from newbies.

I do also understand the bar owners have to make some money, and of course it is a business. It used to be 300 baht a fine, which I didn't mind paying but some really push it up now, most I heard was 800baht in BKK and this is just unacceptable.

Give ladyboykisses a try or mythailadyboy, line some girls up just out of the main areas and fly them down on Air Asia for the sake of £20 and have a week of loving for another £50 or so :)

[Luung]

They're even trying it on up here in Chiang Mai now too!.. A little while ago I got talking to a cute (but nothing special) LB, in a little more than average, mixed LB/GG bar in Loi Kroh Rd, where I was told 700 baht bar fine & shot time only for 1,000 baht... Anyway, I politely told the girl how much I 'really' thought she was worth & then went off into the night & got myself a piece of drop dead gorgeous, leggy, university educated 'Street Meat' for 500 baht & had a rollicking good time of it!

I've since been told by somebody really close to the management that they really don't want expats in there, which I think I'd already quite easily worked out for myself, at any rate!

Packman, nobody likes seeing businesses going under, but fuck it, this is day light bleeding robbery!!!.. They blatantly just want to fleece unaware tourists, so in this sort of case & with the likes of Pook too I'll say that we can well do without them & I'd actually like to see them fail & end up with egg on their faces... FUCK EM'! 700 baht bar fucking bar fine in Chiang Mai!.. They're just going to keep pushing the ceiling man... And I've said it before & I'll say it again, it's just sheer utter bastard greed at its ugliest, perpetrated by businesses that are more often than not earning hand over fucking fist!

Yes, the whole scene is changing & fast too!.. It's getting more callous by the minute... But who says we need these bars? You're never more than 10 minutes away from a 'bunk up' anywhere in this whole fucking country!

Anyway, nice last post Packkers, sounds a bit more like you're getting on the same song sheet as the rest of us?

[pacman]

The Thais didn't invent greed but they all have an honours degree in it. And farangs aren't welcome with open arms as much as we like to think we are. We are welcome as a source of cash & as long as we spread a bit around, we are tolerated.

And the police aren't there to dispense justice, they are the biggest money making force in the whole country. Bars are routinely shaken down & girls are rounded up, not to protect anyone but to keep the revenue flowing in.

Years ago I had an ex-pat friend living in LOS crying on the phone telling me the mafia were after him & were going to kill him. I told him he must go to the police & get their help. There was a pause on the phone while he contemplated what sort of idiot he was dealing with. "The mafia are the police" was all he said.

Now LOS is having to deal with the GFC like every other country. And the bars & clubs won't go down without a fight. And if they see the girls being taken out of their bar after only one drink & they know the top girls get 2 to 3000 baht a night or even just a ST, it doesn't take a maths degree to work out where the money is being made. And if that means they force the girls into servitude, to a Hi So Thai, that is only reinforcing what they believe to be the correct order of things.

The Thais have a shocking reputation for exploiting Lo So's, most bargirls (LB & GG) are from Issan & are seen as something less than real Thai. They comprise over 40% of the population, handle about 5% of the wealth & they are barely tolerated by the 'aristocracy'. Who am I kidding? They are despised as being less than human, why they don't even speak Thai. Issan Thai is a dialect & is considered the language of a very low person.

So all the ingredients are there for a perfect storm in the Pattaya bar scene.

I don't want to see it any more than the next guy & I am not saying this is a fait accompl, but history is on my side. As I wrote yesterday - this is the thin end of the wedge. Once this idea gets into the heads of the Thai club & bar owners, then they won't be deterred by a few upset farang visitors. As Lung reports, it has reached Chiang Mai already. Next it will start happening in Phuket.

Sorry guys, but this is about making money & we can complain all we like, we count for nought. And yes, let me state it again for the record, anyone who decides to hold out, whether it is a farang barowner or a popular girl, they'll be shot. The life of a Lo So is worth nothing in the Land of Smiles.

[pacman]

no I am not being provocative you seem to be of the opinion that everyone but you is wrong, you can do what you like , why is someone being provocative because they dont agree with the all seeing all knowing Pacman, you go pay these fucking pirates if you like but I wont be doing it and nor will many people.

I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. That's irony, a subtle self deprecating dig at myself. You should try it, it might lighten your view of the world.

Just because I write in a positive manner & not from a position of doubt (how boring would that be?) you take my opinions & give them authority they don't have. I make my point & then consider all arguments against it. And I am often swayed. I am not writing gospel, I enjoy an intelligent debate & I certainly don't think of everyone else as being wrong.

But you are welcome to your opinion, you gave me my best laugh of the week with this little gem - "the all seeing all knowing Pacman"... cheers... I loved it... :lol:

[dixon cox]

I always enjoy reading pacman's take on things, but from a personal perspective I too wouldn't entertain 'paying the house' again.

I did so once at Pook Swan in January with a girl I knew well, as after a few bevvies and my first experience of such a modus operandi my decision to do the deed had already been made and I just went with the flow. But in the clear light of day wondered what had happened as it was my first experience of such tactics, but from that moment forward I decided it would not be repeated.

If a bar disappears not all the girls suddenly disappear along with it, many move around to another venue or work freelance.

If the venues shrunk to such a degree that they could not employ all the available girls who still needed to support families up-country then I look forward to that time when I can cruise the sleazy sois and Beach Road in search of them, instead of the slim pickings which is often the case now, as that is my preferred method of engagement anyway and a hell of a sight cheaper too.