vanishing thailand The Vanishing Ways of Thailand that us Farangs will miss

[Zeppie]

16 hours ago, Rom said:

-  A lot of TH veterans are now talking of the PH as the next frontier, but here too things are changing fast.  Don't assume the white man is at the top of the natives wishlists like we were in TH.  The Koreans have pretty much made the PH their playground and I am starting to see Indians and Arabs...

-  Yes I have the skills to continue to meet young, hot sissies.  But will I continue to have the drive ?

I agree PH has/is getting more attention. I also agree the westener is not top dog anymore, but still very viable.  Asians (china, Japan, Korea, etc) are the new cash cows.  Indians,and Arabs are playing a role.  So, if you view things from a westener, especially an experienced one, then yeah things have changed and not for the better.  Thats why when I first joined LBR, my enquiry was about the new IPO for mongering.  The TH model is a cash cow for the country and it's citizens.  Ofcourse you have to take the bad that comes with this type economic stimulant.    

[Pulci Gorgon]

I don't really know about the TH sex tourism industry, particlarly, I don't feel interested in the 40+MILFs, but I remain convinced that the Thai ladyboy industry will not extinguish. It may reach a low point, but it will become the trans industry that provides the highest level of upscale services in the world, perhaps even becoming the most expensive. Many of the most beautiful Thai ladyboys are able to live without working in the sex industry, but I believe that the Thai sex industry will keep on working with beautiful and expensive ladyboys. 
I had tried to explore the Phils more than 10 years ago. It seems that the Pinoy ladyboy industry is not as developped as the Thai one, and won't develop places like Pattaya or BKK RLDs. I see the Philippines as a place where ladyboys can be found fresh from their provincial island (not from the farm), but a sex tourist needs to develop adequat skills to find and create relationships with them. Idiots who were used to sit in a bar and ask "how much is the bar fine" won't last long in the Phils. 
I don't think I will try to explore the Phils again in the next few years since I have classified the country as "out of my range", in other words, airline tickets to go there make the trip too much expensive. 

[Woodie]

Have just returned from Thailand and stopped for only one night in HCMC Vietnam on the way home. Glad it was only one night. Not a lot going on in that city. I saw one lb on that night. She had just hopped onto her motorbike. We exchanged looks and then she was off. Too manly for me anyway.

As far as Thailand goes, I would say very few lb's are making heaps. It is low season right now and they are struggling. The falangs are not out in force, nor are the Indians etc..

I think there was a bit of Thai logic going on, ie when times are tough put up the prices. They seem to think that does the trick. Funny that.

In the lb bars I went to there was never more than about 4 or 5 punters and they did not hang around for long. The popular lb's make a bit but the others struggle. Unless the less popular lb's give up the battle and go home, thereby creating a supply and demand situation, prices will not go up. In Pattaya the going price seemed to be around 1300 -1500baht, and in BKK around 1600-2000, maybe a bit more for the hot ones.

Be interesting to see what happens after Sept/October.

Unless there is a sudden change, I cant see things being different anytime soon.

[Pulci Gorgon]

11 hours ago, Woodie said:

Have just returned from Thailand and stopped for only one night in HCMC Vietnam on the way home. Glad it was only one night. Not a lot going on in that city. I saw one lb on that night. She had just hopped onto her motorbike. We exchanged looks and then she was off. Too manly for me anyway.

As far as Thailand goes, I would say very few lb's are making heaps. It is low season right now and they are struggling. The falangs are not out in force, nor are the Indians etc..

I think there was a bit of Thai logic going on, ie when times are tough put up the prices. They seem to think that does the trick. Funny that.

In the lb bars I went to there was never more than about 4 or 5 punters and they did not hang around for long. The popular lb's make a bit but the others struggle. Unless the less popular lb's give up the battle and go home, thereby creating a supply and demand situation, prices will not go up. In Pattaya the going price seemed to be around 1300 -1500baht, and in BKK around 1600-2000, maybe a bit more for the hot ones.

Be interesting to see what happens after Sept/October.

Unless there is a sudden change, I cant see things being different anytime soon.

A bit short for a TR , isn't it ? 
Regarding the night you spent in HCMC, I don't know anyone who managed to fully experience the city in just one night. Even with the information I provided, it's not sufficient to grasp the essential details and fundamentals. I'm not convinced that you even read through the crucial information I shared.

 

 

This serves as an illustration of what is likely to occur in the future. While there will be opportunities to find ladyboys in various Asian countries, punters who do not put in the effort or hope to stumble upon them effortlessly from the confines of a bar will only waste their time and return empty-handed.

 

[Pdoggg]

5 hours ago, Pulci Gorgon said:

While there will be opportunities to find ladyboys in various Asian countries, punters who do not put in the effort or hope to stumble upon them effortlessly from the confines of a bar will only waste their time and return empty-handed.

 

You enjoy the challenge of being an explorer.  But I think many mongers just want easy access to the sex that they desire.  So the Thai bar system works well for them. 

When travelling somewhere new there is a learning curve and even the most streetwise monger who has done a fair degree of research needs time to get up to speed in a new country or even a new city.      

[Woodie]

8 hours ago, Pulci Gorgon said:

A bit short for a TR , isn't it ? 
Regarding the night you spent in HCMC, I don't know anyone who managed to fully experience the city in just one night. Even with the information I provided, it's not sufficient to grasp the essential details and fundamentals. I'm not convinced that you even read through the crucial information I shared.

 

 

This serves as an illustration of what is likely to occur in the future. While there will be opportunities to find ladyboys in various Asian countries, punters who do not put in the effort or hope to stumble upon them effortlessly from the confines of a bar will only waste their time and return empty-handed.

 

I did not think that I had specified that it was a TR?.

Only a brief remark re HCMC after the very short time I was there. The short time was as a result of me stuffing up the visa. Did not realize that I needed one!!!!. This led to a nervous few hours in BKK airport while one was produced. A great way for them to promote tourism and generate extra revenue. One could question why you needed one for a short visit. I ran into a young couple in the airport who had committed the same transgression. We had a laugh about it.

I do thank you for your info that you supplied before my trip but after my very short visit I don't think I will be returning. Not many people like to get scammed by taxis etc.. I was fortunate enough to run into an English guy in the airport who had lived there and was returning for a short visit. We shared the taxi and all was good as he related a few stories about living in HCMC. Thank goodness for that!.

I must say that the young guy at the hotel was fantastic. Full of info and the room although very small was adequate with the best bed I had slept in on my trip. Thai hotels take note!. Hey, I also liked the beer called Tiger Crystal. Very good.

[Woodie]

2 hours ago, Pdoggg said:

You enjoy the challenge of being an explorer.  But I think many mongers just want easy access to the sex that they desire.  So the Thai bar system works well for them. 

When travelling somewhere new there is a learning curve and even the most streetwise monger who has done a fair degree of research needs time to get up to speed in a new country or even a new city.      

Couldn't agree more Pdogg. I think you would need at least a week there to get your bearings. Mine was a very short visit, prompted by the cheapish airfare and the chance to visit another country. Having a good knowledge of how Thailand works it is a different world in Vietnam, or seems to be.

[Pulci Gorgon]

11 hours ago, Pdoggg said:

You enjoy the challenge of being an explorer.  But I think many mongers just want easy access to the sex that they desire.  So the Thai bar system works well for them. 

When travelling somewhere new there is a learning curve and even the most streetwise monger who has done a fair degree of research needs time to get up to speed in a new country or even a new city.      

I agree that many punters prefer the convenient Thai system, even though prices are (or should be) higher. Personally, it really frustrates me when I realize that a Thai ladyboy, who is not necessarily better in the room compared to a ladyboy from another country, charges me double the price for the same service. My exploration started not just for the pleasure of exploring, but because I found that ladyboys services were consistently overpriced.

9 hours ago, Woodie said:

Couldn't agree more Pdogg. I think you would need at least a week there to get your bearings. Mine was a very short visit, prompted by the cheapish airfare and the chance to visit another country. Having a good knowledge of how Thailand works it is a different world in Vietnam, or seems to be.

I didn't realize that your stop in Saigon was solely motivated by the opportunity to save money on the fare. However, I believe you missed out on the chance to experience another group of ladyboys. When I mention that punters need to make efforts, the first step is to gather information about visa requirements in a new country. In Vietnam, visa exemptions for 15 days have been reinstated for nationals of 13 countries, as well as the visa exemption policy for foreign nationals based on international treaties or reciprocity, after a temporary interruption due to the Covid-19 crisis. So, whether you stayed for one night or three to four nights, it should have made no difference.BTW, I don’t know which country you’re from.

During my few trips to Saigon, I have never encountered a ladyboy on my first night. However, I had provided you with information, including details that could facilitate a prompt date. I not only feel disappointed but also frustrated because it seems like you didn't invest as much time in preparing for your visit as I did in finding contacts or specific advice for your trip. Now, I'll have to explain to two ladyboys why they didn't get to meet the visitor for whom they had made arrangements.

This further reinforces my belief that it's a waste of time to explain how I find ladyboys during my trips. Never explain; let them figure it out on their own.

Besides this particular experience, punters should be aware that if the day comes when Thailand becomes unaffordable or possibly no longer an option, it will be challenging, if not impossible, for them to seek out alternative destinations with favorable conditions. This is what I meant before Woodie posted above. 

[Zeppie]

20 hours ago, Pulci Gorgon said:

A bit short for a TR , isn't it ? 

 

That's not very nice PG.

Sorry, I don't mean to stick up for you Woodie.  My apologies.

[Pulci Gorgon]

I shared with him my VN ladyboys directory with pages giving operational advises. I placed an add in a Vietnamese forum. A couple of VN ladyboys answered. One of them met his criteria perfectly. Then he didn't keep me informed of his decision. 
Afterward hes just posted VN bashing (negative comments that HCMC don't deserve). 

Above all, he made me lose face with one of my best contacts in HCMC. I have the right to be ironic when someone makes me bear the consequences of their lack of decision-making.

[Woodie]

8 hours ago, Pulci Gorgon said:

I shared with him my VN ladyboys directory with pages giving operational advises. I placed an add in a Vietnamese forum. A couple of VN ladyboys answered. One of them met his criteria perfectly. Then he didn't keep me informed of his decision. 
Afterward hes just posted VN bashing (negative comments that HCMC don't deserve). 

Above all, he made me lose face with one of my best contacts in HCMC. I have the right to be ironic when someone makes me bear the consequences of their lack of decision-making.

If you mean getting scammed by taxis as VN bashing. If warnings come from the hotel that I had booked and also the guy I shared the the taxi with well so be it. That was all I stated. Sorry if I did not follow up on the contacts you provided. My short stay did not allow much exploration. The hotel was fine as was its location.

[Pulci Gorgon]

You chose a path that was unlikely to succeed. Other stories are merely excuses. No one can accomplish it on their first visit to HCMC in one night. As soon as you had planned one night only, you had decided you wouldn't make it. .

Returning to the topic at hand, here lies the problem with you guys who have remained too long in the comfort of Pattaya. You're unable to  struggle to adapt to new situations. You will be left with no option but to accept price increases in Pattaya or cease visiting Thailand in the future.
Please, do not ask me  when you claim to be visiting a country I have explored explored.

[Rom]

A bit of a threadfuck going on here shifting the topic from "vanishing Thailand" to "famishing Vietnam".  But what the heck ... posts are too precious at LBR to be picky...

I too was in 'Nam TWICE late-2000s and did NOT get laid.  In my case I was too chicken.  I had the motorbike ladies in Saigon swirling around me and offering to carry me off to some place, which is the last thing I would go for anywhere in the world: allow myself to be taken to an unknown place picked by the prosti.  In Hanoi, I was staying at what I think was the top government owned hotel at the time, it was crawling with military uniforms, and no prosti wanted to be seen there selling pussy to gringos.  I just pictured myself being taken to that POW-MIA camp from the Rambo movie, except I am no Rambo.   My second time I did not go to Saigon and in Hanoi I stayed in a small row house hotel privately run and on the 3rd or 4th night the owner asked me if I wanted a lady.  I was tempted but he said a very high price and that if he called the lady I had to pay whether I liked her or not.  So I passed.  I did go to a nightlife area that had one gay bar where I saw 2  transwomen that I think were prostitutes.  They looked at me a lot but again I saw myself with the missing POW-MIAs from the Viet Nam war and did not make a move.

Both times I stayed less than 2 weeks but  from what PG has shared I think I would score GGs and ladyboys if I stayed longer and took careful, incremental steps and learned along the way.  But for my short stays it was not worth the hassle and perceived RISK!

I had similar experiences in Vientiane Laos.  I was in a mid-range hotel with a basement disco with upwards of 50 GG prostis who all stayed on 1 side of the disco and only danced certain songs when they would all come on the dance floor and parade themselves.  I was the only foreigner, none of the prostis was focusing on me.  Laos was run by a generals junta no one even knew who was in charge.  I was the outlier.  Not want to risk.  On the other hand, I saw a few ladyboys like in Thailand in their most famous bar for tourists but did not engage them.  If I had stayed longer I would have gone back with a plan...

So getting back on topic:  Thailand is just so easy.  You have almost infinite choice, price information, and safety to transact.  The infinite choice part is the one that is vanishing before our eyes...

[Pdoggg]

1 hour ago, Rom said:

motorbike ladies

A good rule of thumb anywhere in the world is to avoid any ladyboy who pulls up to you on a motobike unless she happens to be someone that you have a good preexisting relationship with.

[Pulci Gorgon]

@Rom : you can split the topic and create a new one with posts dealing with VN. I know you don't like that, but this would be an opportunity to deal with it. 

Vietnam today is vastly different from Vietnam in the mid-2000s. In 2013, the laws underwent changes to crackdown on prostitution activities. After 2013, reeducation centers for prostitutes were closed, leading to a significant surge in street prostitution. This had been the last time of ladies on motorbikes. I saw a few ladyboys riding motorbikes to hook up customers in Youtube. The new law, or the way it was enforced, proved to be effective, and as a result, these traders vanished from the streets before my first visit to Vietnam in 2016I had the chance to visit the remaining places with street experts, all of them being ladyboys, before the Covid crisis provided the army with an opportunity to completely eradicate them, except the spot in Da Nang. 

Vietnam underwent such rapid changes during the pandemic that I observed a stark contrast between 2019 and 2022. While Vietnamese ladyboys have the potential to become top notch professionals, they seem to be falling short. They often mishandle the marketing of their services and tend to inflate prices without delivering the level of excellence expected. Nonetheless, I still believe that Saigon offers an intriguing opportunity for astute individuals who know how to find genuine experts.

Upon my last arrival in Saigon, I was taken aback by how much the boulevard leading to District 1 had changed, even though it had only been less than a month since my previous visit (but I hadn't been to Q1 after leaving the airport). HCMC now appears as clean as Singapore, and I hope the same level of excellence extends behind the walls. 

[Rom]

I am the OP who started this thread one and half year ago and here I try to resurrect it with an updated reference to Thailand's shrinking demographics and a plan the government has announced to address it, which surprisingly does not include promoting more births but rather improving labor productivity and longevity so a shrinking population can preserve income and living standards.

The plan is called “5x5 Let’s Turn the Tide” and you can read its main pillars in today's Bangkok Post link below.   You can also google it and find more information on the particulars.

I would just highlight that Thailand's population has according to the Bangkok Post article peaked (in 2019?) having "decreased by around 500,000 in the past four years" and going forward: each year it will fall by more than in the previous one with 10 million fewer Thais projected for 20 years from now.

Perhaps such losses will be mitigated by immigration from neighboring countries but the outlook is for labor shortages which includes the prostis, and the maids, and the taxi drivers who make our life in TH so affordably comfortable.

The only mongering upside I can think of is that the pace of population shrinking still leaves us a few good years left of fucking impoverished Thais... Let's enjoy while it lasts.  I will probably be too old for fucking by the time the mongering scene as we knew it all but vanishes for lack of cheap prostis.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2823854/population-time-bomb-needs-defusing-says-minister

[Zeppie]

Personally, I don't put much stock in 20 year projections, unless directly driven by rules and regulations for desired output.  Things cycle in life, they go up and down like the weather, over time.  As for mongering, I suspect the hayday has possibly peaked, as GDP, goods and services improve in TH, lifting people up and more and more reasonable alternatives become available.  Nature says all things come to an end.  The TH model is successful and a bit surprising that TH has had an monopoly.   

Essentially, the money is to good for the political controlling class that share in the wealth.  Therefore, without a replacement, greed will be a strong incentive not to cook the golden goose.  

 

[Pulci Gorgon]

I observe a notable difference between Rom's comments and the information presented in the Bangkok Post article. The Bangkok Post cites the Minister of Social Development and Human Security, Varawut Silpa-archa, who asserts that the Thai population will continue to decline sharply over the next few decades at rates unprecedented in any other country. He is not merely addressing a demographic transition but is also emphasizing the need for Thailand to continue developing in order to confront both climatic challenges and demographic changes. In other words, he advocates for sustained economic development, mirroring the trajectories of the most developed countries in the world. The Bangkok post didn't mention nightlife, bars or prostitution in any way.

 Rom utilized this analysis to predict the decline of expertise as intended by the Thai government, a consequence of the ongoing demographic transition. If we carefully examine TRs, especially Rom's, it is obvious that p4p has been gradually declining for the past 30 years, if not longer. Prices have increased, fewer GGs and ladyboys are relocating to Bangkok, Pattaya, or other cities to work in bars or as freelancers, and fewer young people are interested in prostitution as they can find qualified and well-paid jobs in their home provinces or regional capitals.

Needless to cite the Bangkok post to observe a decline in p4p. It happened in many countries as they reached a certain level of both economic and demographic development. The intersection of a poor population with foreigners willing to spend money on sex tourism has historically driven prostitution, a problem that can only be effectively curbed through national regulations and robust economic and social development. Conversely, when civilization declines, certain social ills resurface, such as delinquency, drug trafficking, and unregulated prostitution. I could observe it the USA (civilization relatively declining) or in Eastern Europe after the fall of the Iron Curtain and then integration into the European Union and even in Vietnam. I observed the same phenomenon to a lesser extent in Western Europe.

Sooner or later, Thailand or other ladyboys countries will no longer be interesting either due to a lack of competitiveness or because the activity will no longer attract old customers like we will become. WTF ? I started paying prostis in my country and each time p4p wouldn't be interesting, I moved to another place where I found more interesting gurls. Each time, I would no longer be interested by a group of prostis (eg girls from Yugoslavia) I found either another category of girls or another country with more interesting prostis. This explains why I travelled so much when looking for ladyboys. (BTW, even without ladyboys, I found an advantage in discovering Asia). I haven't been to Thailand since 2017. I sometimes won advantage or sometimes found worse conditions, but I feel ready to stop for a while and some kind of new prostis in another part of the world where I can find pleasure and cheaper conditions.

[barforth]

I cannot foresee any shortage in the availability of lbs for p4p.

Most ot the Thai's come from the comparatively poor region of Isaan where many are in debt to the banks and cannot afford to educate their children so getting a good job for a lb will not be possible. Plus climate change may also contribute to their financial woes 

Also there is no reason why the supply from Laos, now a Chinese satellite or from Cambodia should diminish.

[Zeppie]

How can climate change, be drugged into this topic.  It's absurd to involve climate change into this topic......

[barforth]

1 hour ago, Zeppie said:

How can climate change, be drugged into this topic.  It's absurd to involve climate change into this topic......

As they are farmers then droughts or excessive rainful can devastate their crops and thus have a severe impact upon their income which is relevant to the opinion I was floating.

So why do you think it is absurd?

[Pulci Gorgon]

15 hours ago, barforth said:

I cannot foresee any shortage in the availability of lbs for p4p.

Most ot the Thai's come from the comparatively poor region of Isaan where many are in debt to the banks and cannot afford to educate their children so getting a good job for a lb will not be possible. Plus climate change may also contribute to their financial woes 

Also there is no reason why the supply from Laos, now a Chinese satellite or from Cambodia should diminish.

 

I don't know how long you've mongered in Thailand, but if you read Rom's topics, particularly those dealing with a 'golden age', you realize that fewer ladyboys (and GGs) work in p4p. This doesn't mean there will be any shortage, but sooner or later for many mongers the golden age is long gone, and it's no longer worth the effort to go to Thailand. I mentionned other places I had visited for p4p. Except in small cities, p4p remains active in my country but girls have stopped being attractive, and prices are no longer competitive. This is the tipping point where clients stop visiting Thailand and prefer to go and find prostis in other places or seek other leisure activities .

[Rom]

Thanks gentlemen for chipping in.  Let me make 5 things clear as regards my timeline assessment of the TH sissy situation:

1 - The "Golden Age" according to me (and my pal the Captain Outrageous who contributed to it on the internet) was the EARLY 2000s when ladyboys sprang from all walks of life in TH in response to the interest generated in the internet in the late 1990s.  In BKK and Patts there were fewer bars and fewer ladyboys than there are now but there were much much much fewer of us mongers and sexpats.  That's what made it the "Golden Age": the fact that there were fewer farangs and the ladyboys were fresher and eager to be with us and we felt like pioneers and harem sultans.  Plus the sissies were pristine(no exaggerated surgery or tattoos) and considerably younger unlike now they rarely exceeded 25 yo at which age the bars would retire the old bags.

2 - From like 2005 onwards, ladyboy-experimenting sex tourists surged and many stayed on as sexpats (the Kendos, and the Scotts,...).  But the ladyboys kept coming in droves and my assessment is that the number of bars and sissies peaked sometime in 2012-13.  Since then, the trend has been downward.  As mentioned, there are demographic and rising income reasons for that.

3 - However in my last visit to Pattaya one month ago I assessed the bar and prostis situation to have improved relative to my prior post-covid visits.  The consolidation of prostis in the Buakhao area continues and it is rocking more than I ever saw it (while in other parts of town the opposite happens). 

4 - I am now an old man and if I'm lucky I may have another 10 good years of mongering and even if the number of Thai P4P sissies collapses to 1/5 th there will still be plenty for me... but every year that passes I will be paying more for older ones and facing competition from ever increasing legions of sex tourists especially from Asia that have only barely scratched the joy of sissy fucking.

5 - In our lifetimes, I don't see anywhere else in the world becoming a more attractive sissy mongering destination quantity and pricewise than TH.  Not the PH. Not Brazil. I have been to both and there are no sissy bars like in TH and nowhere near as many as % of the population. Africa is a GG mongers paradise (going back later this year) but there are no prospects of feminine looking sissies anytime soon as homosexuality is socially repressed in some cases violently. 

Hope this helps.

[Zeppie]

6 hours ago, barforth said:

As they are farmers then droughts or excessive rainful can devastate their crops and thus have a severe impact upon their income which is relevant to the opinion I was floating.

So why do you think it is absurd?

because weather has been changing since the day the earth was born.......secondly to ingest CC.......(which use to be called global warming) regarding mongering, is so far fetched.   

[Cinederose]

3 hours ago, Zeppie said:

because weather has been changing since the day the earth was born.......secondly to ingest CC.......(which use to be called global warming) regarding mongering, is so far fetched.   

I saw a headline recently which was mocked on Twitter , "Climate change is effecting Transgender workers in Brazil " as it was raining or such foolishness , i go with John colman the inventer of the weather channel the best meteoroligest of our time who from 17 untill his 80s studied weather patterns and said climate change formally global warming formally global freezing was fake , flawed research which was think tanks being paid unseen amounts to churn out garbage and changed every few years , its laundering like the ukraine war anyway i cannot say about ladyboy decline so i will accept what the old masters say is true but Boy Sukhumvit on a friday night is insane hundreds of them outnumbering the girls surely that cannot have always been so