US Govt killed MLK

[strocube]

What the hell, May as well say what I think or suppose about some the "conspiracies" mentioned in this thread.

JFK: Elements within the US gov. killed him.

RFK: probably the same thing

MLK: US Gov. killed him

9-11: Inside job/ false flag

John Lennon: lone whacko

Raygun: lone whacko

Sandyhook, Colombine: lone whackos

Moon landing: actually happened

Didn't see these in the thread, but what the hell: Michael Hastings, killed by some element of the US military. Gary Webb, two gunshot wounds to the head, ruled a "suicide." Right . . . makes perfect sense to me.

I suppose these are more probable than not. I "believe" nothing, and reserve the right to change my mind if and when any new shit comes to light.

[strocube]

Here are a few more actual conspiracies, in no particular order, for those of you who have a hard time admitting such a thing even exists.

HSBC, the Gulf of Tonkin incident, Iran/Contra, operation Gladio, MK Ultra, COINTELPRO, Iran 1953, Guatemala 1954, Chile 1973, Operation Paperclip, Tuskegee, Operation Northwoods, etc. A few clicks will verify every single one of those.

Now where did I leave my tin foil hat, damnit?!

[pacman]

Cheers Stro'. That's so much better than my comment that every covered-up crime by a bunch of criminals involves a conspiracy or that major operations carried out during WW2 relied on a conspiracy of silence that have carried on till today. 

 

I still find myself amazed when someone can blurt out "I don't believe in conspiracies". What? So the ratings agencies didn't conspire when they colluded to sell increasingly worthless CDO's which in turn crashed the US economy just to name one . How does one account for the other unexplained things, some of which may be conspiracies, many of which are definitely not, but most certainly there are those that are. 

 

Thanks for mentioning the moon landing story because that is the perfect theory with which to tar all theorists with the brush of insanity. Why on earth would anyone who suspects foul play in the JFK story ever be imagined as to accepting that silly nonsense? Unless of course it is so necessary to the non-believers self esteem to discredit anyone who won't toe the official line.

 

I would also like to point out that "conspiracy theory" or "conspiracy theorist" have become terms of derision. They essentially refer to anyone or anything,that is deemed by anyone in a position of authority, as being beyond the pale of rational thought. They function as our current taboos.

I have noticed that there have lately been a lot of pieces on line, at various sites, questioning the sanity of anyone who dares challenge the ideas presented by the dominant narrative. Any counter-narrative that is deemed potentially threatening is colored with the term "conspiracy" so that "right thinking" people can ignore those ideas as whacko and not worth any consideration. It's a neat little trick.

 

 

Exactly!

 

While debating theories on the forum, those who wished to deny them only had this to fall back on. JaiDee used it most effectively, he couldn't present new evidence, he could only reiterate what we have all been told is the truth & attack other possibilities as beyond belief. Without having to say I was "foolish", he made the case very well. 

 

JaiDee & I have taken opposite sides & the more I argued the more entrenched he became. I'm fine with that. I have never considered if he wins I lose or vice versa. I am more fascinated by how the human condition will make us either suspicious or will bring us to rally around the flag. I wonder how much JaiDee's position is motivated by patriotism. To accept malfeasance is to accept the unthinkable, i.e. your government has lied to you.

 

And all those conspiracy loving commies are traitors who must be denied. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Again.

[strocube]

I think you're pretty right on Pacman.

The way I am currently viewing most of this stuff is as an unfolding battle of narratives. On one side there is the all-pervasive dominant narrative, and on the other sides there are a whole shitload of conflicting narratives. You've got everything from extreme evangelical end-of-the-worlders, to people who suspect that there is an alternative space program, the moon is hollow, and the WTC were brought down by particle weapons, etc, etc.

The way I see things, is that yes, there are all kinds of competing conspiracies going on all the time. Where I part company with Alex Jones and people of his ilk, is when they insist that there is a single overarching conspiracy in control of everything. That to me, is clearly an "epistimological cartoon."

About all we can do is try and make sense of out all the noise as best we can. Or if you are so inclined, you can very easily drink the cool-aid of your particular culture and not worry it about anymore. Most people go the cultural cool-aid route. It's a scary pain in the ass trying to DYI.

[SiamSam]

There is a modern day version of the "Star Chamber" isn't there?

[strocube]

There is a modern day version of the "Star Chamber" isn't there?

What is that?

[SiamSam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_chamber

[strocube]

Thanks for that. Guess I could've looked it up just as easily.

Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, but what does a star chamber have to do with this thread?

[SiamSam]

Conspiracy.

 

Unknown and beyond the reach of the rest of us a "star chamber" of elite people deciding the course of events for all of us. I suppose, the ultimate conspiracy.

 

Perhaps I am off the mark pertaining to this thread. My apologies. 

[pacman]

Sam, the thread veered off topic a while back. And a star chamber couldn't exist without a conspiracy of silence among its members. I have no evidence they operate but if I want to be provocative I can equally say I have no evidence they don't. The idea of such a group is an attractive notion for those who despair of the imbalance of justice in the world. Providing they are operating in OUR interests, not for those other bastards.

 

A group that allegedly wields more power than any star chamber & whose existence is undeniable is the Bilderberg Group. Once their meetings were in secret, today their annual meetings are a media event. It is arguably the most powerful bunch of individuals in the world, many ex-Presidents & Prime Ministers, many of the banking world elite, some of the richest guys on the planet, all people of power & influence. And nothing they discuss is ever reported on.

 

Many world events have allegedly been "arranged" at these meetings, things like the sacking of leaders, the overthrow of governments, the destabilising of economies or the reverse, so many accusations & not one piece of evidence to support it.  

 

I love how wherever they meet they insist on a no fly zone above their meeting place. One time in Europe they were told it was impossible, 1000's of flights would need to be diverted, it simply couldn't be done. They got their no fly zone, apparently it couldn't be done for normal people, these folks are way beyond normal.

[strocube]

Conspiracy.

 

Unknown and beyond the reach of the rest of us a "star chamber" of elite people deciding the course of events for all of us. I suppose, the ultimate conspiracy.

 

Perhaps I am off the mark pertaining to this thread. My apologies.

Not at all, Sam. I just didn't make the connection. Thanks for the explanation; now I get it.

[williethepimp]

very interesting thread(having come very late to it)....I'm always baffled by people who dismiss any questioning of the "official" versions without actually doing any research before making their own minds up.....for me MLK ,RFK and of course JFK were all killed by the US govt black ops guys.....the former two killings the more glaringly obvious.......

 

In the uk,we've had allegations for years that the govt conspired in the murders of prominent Republican figures in Northern Ireland...such allegations were always roundly condemned as "conspiracy theories"....guess what,it has now come out that ,yes indeed,govt black ops/army intel/and paramilitary murder gangs did indeed collude in the murder of Northern Irish citizens.....

 

  I take everything the government tells me with a pinch of salt.

[Lefty]

Strocube and Wille to the rescue. Good stuff guys. 

 

   

[JaiDee]

 I wonder how much JaiDee's position is motivated by patriotism.

 

 

 

  Zero.

 

It's motivated by sanity.

[JaiDee]

 the Gulf of Tonkin incident

 

   This one I have no doubt of......Johnson was looking for an entrance into Vietnam and this little incident, where there really WAS no incident, gave him his way in.  Not a conspiracy, just a president over-reaching his boundaries.

 

     Kind of a stretch, however, to say that because our president and his staff lied about a couple Vietnamese PT boats taking pot shots at a couple of our cruisers in order to get us into a war they wanted, it also means he must have been working with some small-time Dallas nightclub owner to take out Lee Oswald,  which I read right here on this message board. And Sirhan Sirhan was some government-backed hitman ordered to take out Robert Kennedy.  And Mark Chapman and James Earl Ray; same. A BIG stretch. Note how 3 of  these things happened in the 60's also, must have been a good decade for the CIA.

 

 I like what Gerald Posner said also;  the CIA failed on 10 or 12 attempts to get Castro, but on all these cases?  BAM!  First try, dead, each and every one.  Great success rate in the USA, not so much in Cuba.

 

  Still haven't heard much about the Reagan shooting, and how come no one has brought up Squeeky Fromme?  Tried to kill Gerry Ford and almost did it.   If those 2 presidents were killed on those days instead of simply wounded, the tinfoil hat crew and book-writers would have had a field day with those deaths, about how Hinckley was mind-controlled by GHW's handlers at CIA  with George waiting in the wings, and how Squeeky had ties to the Manson cult and they were active in the 60's so of course they were part of the JFK/RFK/MLK operations as well, how could they not be?  Oh, those 2 guys LIVED? Put away the tinfoil, nothing to see here.

 

   Not buying any of it, too patriotic I guess 

[JaiDee]

Strocube and Wille to the rescue. Good stuff guys. 

 

   

 

  Again, Left One, same as on the other message board;  just because you throw in multiple hand claps or bowing figures, or just because you have figured out  how to use different fonts at different sizes, it doesn't make your or their points any more right.

[JaiDee]

9-11: Inside job/ false flag

 

 

  Appreciate our correspondence over the years and your input here Stro, you also Willie;  as Pacman and I have said we wish more people would come forth with their thoughts to make this thread more interesting, but you kinda lost me on THIS line right here, sorry.

 

Yikes, not sure if that's ''coming to the rescue'' or simply making the case stronger for myself and the non-conspiracy types.

 

          On September 11th, 2001,  4 planes were hijacked by 19 Saudi nationals, who were trained and financed by elements of Al Qaeda, lead by Osama bin Laden.  Their mission was to crash the 4 planes into buildings in Washington DC and NYC; 3 out of 4 hit their targets and close to 3000 people died that day.

 

  There was NO U.S. government involvement, at all.  End of story, sorry. 

 

   If I were truly motivated by patriotism, wouldn't I want to know the TRUTH behind what happened that day, when 3000 of my fellow citizens were murdered? Fact is, I do.

[strocube]

Hey, here's a relatively fresh conspiracy for you guys. It seems drug running by the US gov did not end with Air America and Iran/Contra. Shocking, I know, right?!

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2014/01/dea-case-threatens-expose-us-government-sanctioned-drug-running?utm_content=buffer2343c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

[Lefty]

  Again, Left One, same as on the other message board;  just because you throw in multiple hand claps or bowing figures, or just because you have figured out  how to use different fonts at different sizes, it doesn't make your or their points any more right.

Did I ever say they did? So, what is the big deal? If PDogg does not want us to use different fonts or emoticons, then why are they available? When you reach the point of attacking how I post rather than what I post, it looks pretty weak. I appreciated what both of those guys had to say, as I usually do and I thanked them. I cannot help it if you have a problem with it.       

[SiamSam]

Please be good behaved lads and re-read post # 38 and act accordingly. 

[Lefty]

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” - Joseph Goebbels

[pacman]

  It's motivated by sanity.

 

I can claim the same thing. No one gets the right to claim they are right & everyone else is wrong. We all hold strong opinions on the issue but that's what they are - our personal studied opinion on what we believe to be true. Anyone who can say with surety they are correct to the exclusion of all other claims in the case of something that divides public opinion, is over reaching. 

 

 I like what Gerald Posner said also;  the CIA failed on 10 or 12 attempts to get Castro, but on all these cases?  BAM!  First try, dead, each and every one.  Great success rate in the USA, not so much in Cuba.

 

That is a complete red herring! So what! Past performance is no indicator of future success. That comment is simply designed to mislead & reassure those who reject any idea of a conspiracy.

 

The story of the world is littered with conspiracies. Every criminal operating on the big stage relies on a conspiracy of silence. Wars require people to keep secrets, sometimes 1000's of people. Conspiracies do happen but when it is suggested that a few people who died at a time when it was convenient for some for them to do so & they may, just may have been bumped off by those with vested interests, scorn is turned on them for daring to suggest such a thing. 

 

I have made my feelings known about the ones under discussion & I am not rushing to allege they were all CIA plots but having familiarised myself with the contentious issues, it is a bolder man than I who can say hand on heart, there's no way they were anything other than the work of a nutter. 

 

When you reach the point of attacking how I post rather than what I post, it looks pretty weak. 

 

Play the ball & not the man. I'm always reminded of Voltaire's quote:

 

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

 

Please be good behaved lads and re-read post # 38 and act accordingly. 

 

Everything is fine Sam. No one has invoked Godwin's Law yet, that's when it goes to hell.

 

Godwin's Law for those who don't know it:

 

 "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches "

[azza33]

 

Why do people believe in highly improbable conspiracies? In previous columns I have provided partial answers, citing patternicity (the tendency to find meaningful patterns in random noise) and agenticity (the bent to believe the world is controlled by invisible intentional agents). Conspiracy theories connect the dots of random events into meaningful patterns and then infuse those patterns with intentional agency. Add to those propensities the confirmation bias (which seeks and finds confirmatory evidence for what we already believe) and the hindsight bias (which tailors after-the-fact explanations to what we already know happened), and we have the foundation for conspiratorial cognition.

 

Sums up things rather well i would have thought.

[Tomcat]

Well put Azza , i think that may have come from Michael Shermer who writes from Scientific American. I read his column every month and he is indeed a man of reason....

 

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2009/09/paranoia-strikes-deep/#more-1175

 

 

               " Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not after you"

                Kurt Cobain RIP

[JaiDee]

Paccie and Lefty, real quick; I have zero problems with you guys thinking what you do about these various theories and as I have said before, it's great fun debating them. 

 

  The only reason I picked on your font  size and multiple clapping hands and exclamation points from the old forums, Lefty, is because by using them and declaring anyone who *didn't* believe in your wide-reaching theory about JFK was [your description] " an obtuse fool." Changing the font or using CAPS or exclamation points doesn't make your point any more correct, nor does calling people fools;  frankly it makes your points only more annoying. We can all read lower case font just fine and 20 exclamation points after a sentence doesn't mean that sentence is correct.

 

    Paccie saying my instinct to not believe in conspiracy theories because I am "patriotic" is akin to your earlier comments about how you 2 guys are the only ones here willing to think for yourselves;  I.E.;  JD and anyone stupid enough to believe what they read in the papers or what the evil ol' government tells them are simply not smart enough to think any differently.  Which is just plain wrong, of course, and to which I take offense. My little dig about sanity was no better though, so we are all guilty to a certain degree of accusing the other side of not really being on top of things when these subjects are discussed. When in fact it's quite obvious we have all looked into them and have drawn our own conclusions.

 

     Lets just keep it civil, avoid the name-calling and declarations of others not being smart enough to make up their own minds and keep the screaming and finger-pointing to a minimum; maybe more people will jump into the fray