A Day Which Will Live In Infamy

[pdogg]

Today is the anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack.

FDR described it as A Day Which Will Live In Infamy.

Perhaps misquoted, he may have said date instead of day.

There are certain days that people will always remember exactly where they were when they heard the news. These days tend to be bad days.

For Americans three biggies would be the Pearl Harbor attack, JFK's assassination, and of course 9/11.

Curious what days if any, stick out for guys from other counties?

[SiamSam]

32 years ago

In Manhattan

At 22h58

On December 08

Mr. John Lennon was assassinated.

Believe it or not it was 32 years ago!!!

I remember the morning of December 09 well after I learned of the murder via the radio. I do not think I have ever been angrier in my life. I was driving my beat up old Datsun downtown and nearly went off the road in a fit of rage. This is a moment I will never forget. It was personal and hit me hard and deep.

[pdogg]

On December 08

Mr. John Lennon was assassinated.

Remember it well. Was watching Monday Night Football when they broke in with the news.

[pacman]

JFK & 9/11 are two occasions seared into our history as well PD. We may not be American but they couldn't have received more coverage or be more discussed than if they happened in Sydney. And I am sure that applies to most other countries to a greater or lesser extent.

As far as the big moments that will always be remembered here in Oz, there are three major ones since the war. The bombing of Pearl Harbour was huge but Australia had already been in the war several years & we have so many of our own milestones from back then that Pearl Harbour can't be singled out. e.g. the sinking of HMAS Sydney with the loss of the entire crew (645 lives), a complete disaster.

The first of the three - our Prime Minister Harold Holt went missing while swimming at the beach on the 17th December 1967. He was skin diving on a rough day & his body was never found. Theories abounded, everything from him being taken by a shark to being abducted by a Russian submarine. The second idea is fairly fanciful but it had currency for many years.

The second one should be better remembered - the complete destruction of Darwin by Cyclone Tracy on Xmas Day 1974. Estimates of the number of lives lost range from 25 to several hundred but the town was torn apart. It was as if an A-Bomb had gone off in the middle of the place. The pictures are unbelievable.

And the best for last - the 11th of November 1975, the day when the Queen's representative, the Governor General of Australia sacked the Prime Minister & appointed the Leader of the Opposition as the care taker PM until elections could be held. The implications of such a move cannot be underestimated & mention of it even today can start a very fierce argument between those who supported the move & those who believed it was the end of democracy.

I don't know how our Canadian or American FMs would feel about such a thing happening in their country but it was utterly bizarre to live through it. I well remember the arguments & the conversations that went on here, both privately & on TV. The entire country was in an uproar.

I won't be drawn on my own feelings about it but I note that the election held soon after supported the action with the biggest swing in history going against the sacked government. Despite all the anger, the public had their chance to reject it & they didn't.

I have a feeling I missed something but they are the first ones that come to mind. Younger FMs won't be so familiar with Harold Holt but it was massive. Coming three years after JFK, it seemed like it was all happening again. Harold was no JFK though. In fact he was the PM who took Australia into the Vietnam War. Hmmm....

[ciobha]

When I read the title of the thread, I thought maybe someone had found proof that Pacman bought a drink!!!!!

[pacman]

Hilarious! Talk about funny! Where do you get 'em from Ciobha? You sure made my day with that little gem...

You owe me a drink..................... again!

[Kahuna]

Those who have stood on the USS Arizona Memorial in Pearl Harbor know the strong feelings Yanks have toward those who so cowardly attacked Hawaii on that day...1177 went down on the Arizona...What's left of them is still there in the hull of what remains of that battleship...All told 2402 died that day in Pearl Harbor...And another 1282 were injured ...December 7, 1941...And the Giant hasn't slept much since...

I suppose in Japan they harbor similar feelings towards Yanks on the anniversaries of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...On August 6, 1945 and August 9, 1945, respectively...Over 200,000 Japanese died on those days and the weeks following...I don't think too many Yanks give a shit...

[JaiDee]

It makes me proud whenever I see the soldiers still around from that era, and there aren't a lot of 'em left anymore. Seeing them at the Arizona memorial or saluting the flag or their deceased friends at Arlington reminds me of my stepdad the Colonel, who fought in Italy and died in 1997, and what Tom Brokaw called "The Greatest Generation". We need to remember all of those guys and gals, and I am happy to know that the words of FDR still ring true; a day which will live in infamy indeed, and which will hopefully never be forgotten.

[JaiDee]

December 7, 1941...And the Giant hasn't slept much since...

On August 6, 1945 and August 9, 1945, respectively...Over 200,000 Japanese died on those days and the weeks following...I don't think too many Yanks give a shit...

Regarding the "giant" quote.....whenever I run into young foreigners who look at us Yanks with a jaded eye and think we are all warmongers because of that cowboy clown from Texas, I need to teach them a little history; we here in the US were pacifists in the years leading up to world war 2, it took an infamous day like this to drag us into the war in the first place! We wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe, and while we supported the Brits we wouldn't commit to sending troops over there; by attacking us, the Japanese awoke a sleeping Giant, made us prepare and mobilize and gather up an army of volunteers to go over there and kick their asses, while the people who stayed at home [a good percentage of them women] worked hard making the tools of war to defeat the axis. It wasn't until the war, and of course in the years following it, that we BECAME that giant; in the 20's and the 30's we were a 2nd-rate army at best, with a decent army air corps [the precursor to the Air Force] and Navy but nothing to brag about.

Second part; Yanks rightfully shouldn't give even one fuck about how world war 2 ended. As you know, had we not dropped those 2 bombs those suicidal Japanese would have fought us to the last man, while millions of Yanks, Brits, Canadians and Aussies and Kiwi's would have died. Of course we have to feel for the civilians, but their military started all that nonsense and we had to do whatever we had to do as quickly as possible to end it; and we did.

[pacman]

I remember there was much discussion about Pearl Harbor years ago that was based around the need to get American involvement in WWII, what FDR knew & what role Churchill played in it. None of them are to blame for the tragedy but there was a pressing need to wake the "giant" up & get their help.

Churchill knew the UK was losing the war. FDR wanted to help but his hands were tied. Others will know the reasons better than I but there was some promise made after the first World War not to get involved in conflicts that weren't of their own making. And FDR had another reason why he wanted America in on the action - it was the chance to kick-start their manufacturing industries which still hadn't recovered from the Depression. Wars have proven very profitable for the US over the years.

The story goes something like this, Churchill in meetings with FDR had secured his promise of support but FDR needed a way to break his promise not to get involved. At that stage Japan hadn't even registered as a possible third front. When Japan was seen gathering their attack armada, someone asked Winston if he should alert the Americans. Now this is where one enters total speculation. The popular story is that he replied "no" but there are articles written that argue the Americans knew. No one could have guessed at the extent of the carnage & I am not suggesting that FDR sat happily by & let it happen.

The authors of this story were not fiction writers but people connected to the chain of command. This is another conspiracy theory that interests me because some of it has been verified & the rest has been hidden by a wall of secrecy. That usually indicates something we are not meant to know about. The positive consequence was America unleashed a force unlike anything the world had ever seen.

They liberated Europe, saved the UK, destroyed the Third Reich & turned Japan from aggressor to a pacifist nation. At the Battle of the Coral Sea, they even helped save Australia. Japan came within a day or two of defeating us & claiming Australia as Japanese territory.

I agree with the sentiments expressed about Japan & their loss. The US paid for & helped re-build the Japanese manufacturing industry to make it the powerhouse it is today. Had the result gone the other way, what would they have done for us? One only needs to look at the Massacre of Nanking to get an appreciation of how they deal with their enemies. I know the returned soldiers from the Japanese labour camps could never forgive their barbarism. They were utter bastards to those on the other side. Something to do with their weird take on their Shinto Buddhist religion, better to die fighting than to be shamed by your captor.

[Kahuna]

Japan came within a day or two of defeating us & claiming Australia as Japanese territory.

And well they didn't or this very day you might be driving around in a Japanese or a German automobile...The Mice That Roared...

I grew up in a house where if I said the word fuck I got my mouth washed out with soap...If I said the word hate I got my mouth washed out with soap twice...My Mama would not allow me to hate as a word or as an emotion...I must confess however, that to this day, if I could, without incurring the wrath of Mama that is, I would feel that way toward the Japanese...Now I know it's unjust to feel that way...It's unfair to modern Japan and its people...But, those emotions do linger...

[Jimslim]

Next thing you'll be telling us that the Russian Red Army played a significant part in defeating Hitler ............ surely a yarn ?

[Jimslim]

They liberated Europe, saved the UK, destroyed the Third Reich & turned Japan from aggressor to a pacifist nation. At the Battle of the Coral Sea, they even helped save Australia.

[Kahuna]

Next thing you'll be telling us that the Russian Red Army played a significant part in defeating Hitler ............ surely a yarn ?

Sorry Jim, but why in the hell would I tell you or anyone else that?

[ArchieBunker]

Next thing you'll be telling us that the Russian Red Army played a significant part in defeating Hitler ............ surely a yarn ?

Its true The Soviets suffered he most in WW II-The Big One!! But this sentiment cracks me up. Who made the treaty with the perfidious Nazis that enabled and enbloded them to attack the West??? Where were The Soviets BEFORE June of 1941?? How shamelessly and ruthlessly did The Soviets and nazis carve up and so cruelly "rule" Poland and The Baltic States??

Yeah The Soviets were just an innocent bystander in all this, werent they????

Hell, even AFTER the Nazis were 100's of kilometers inside The USSR, Stalin was STILL sending raw materials the other way. He was gobsmacked and was shitting his pants at what Uncle Aolf did to him. Couldnt have happened to a nicer guy??

[Jimslim]

How shamelessly and ruthlessly did The Soviets and nazis carve up and so cruelly "rule" Poland and The Baltic States??

Couldnt have happened to a nicer guy??

I agree , I'm certainly no supporter of Stalin and his regime he destroyed the possibilities of real socialism plus he murdered probably more of his own people than Hitler ever did .

What is a fact was Hitler made a massive mistake invading Russia especially with the rather inclement winters there and hence was defeated by the Red Army thus losing the war .

This is usually played down certainly in the UK where we are told Winston Churchill won it single handedly for the allies .

[ArchieBunker]

Anybody with 1/2 a brain will recognise that the USSR took the brunt of Nazi savagery. The Soviet paid them back in kind when they rampaged thru Germany on their way to Berlin.

The Nazis almost reached their goal-Moscow. They delayed the attacked into the USSR by a few weeks as the y had to clean up an Italian mess in the Balkans and put down an uprising. Would those few weeks have made any difference?? We will never know.......

[Lefty]

When I read the title of the thread, I thought maybe someone had found proof that Pacman bought a drink!!!!!

No one can honestly accuse Pacman of being a tightwad when it comes to drinks. I've had more delicious Australian red wine, courtesy of Sir Pacman than I can even remember.

[Lefty]

Regarding the "giant" quote.....whenever I run into young foreigners who look at us Yanks with a jaded eye and think we are all warmongers because of that cowboy clown from Texas, I need to teach them a little history; we here in the US were pacifists in the years leading up to world war 2, it took an infamous day like this to drag us into the war in the first place! We wanted nothing to do with the war in Europe, and while we supported the Brits we wouldn't commit to sending troops over there; by attacking us, the Japanese awoke a sleeping Giant, made us prepare and mobilize and gather up an army of volunteers to go over there and kick their asses, while the people who stayed at home [a good percentage of them women] worked hard making the tools of war to defeat the axis. It wasn't until the war, and of course in the years following it, that we BECAME that giant; in the 20's and the 30's we were a 2nd-rate army at best, with a decent army air corps [the precursor to the Air Force] and Navy but nothing to brag about.

Second part; Yanks rightfully shouldn't give even one fuck about how world war 2 ended. As you know, had we not dropped those 2 bombs those suicidal Japanese would have fought us to the last man, while millions of Yanks, Brits, Canadians and Aussies and Kiwi's would have died. Of course we have to feel for the civilians, but their military started all that nonsense and we had to do whatever we had to do as quickly as possible to end it; and we did.

It wasn't all volunteers. There was a draft back then,

[Lefty]

One little bit of info I've always enjoyed reading was of the 8 US battleships damaged or sunk at Pearl Harbor, 6 of them returned to service and helped get some payback on the Jap bastards. California and West Virginia were completely sunk but refloated. Oklahoma had been capsized but refloated 2 yrs later, though was later lost while being towed to the mainland for repairs. Nevada, Maryland, Pennsylvania and Tennessee had all been damaged but not sunk and were either returned to service or in the case of the Pennsylvania remained in service. The 3 damaged cruisers and 3 damaged destroyers also all returned to service. One way the US was lucky was the Jap commander called off the 3rd wave. According to Nimitz anyway. At first Yamamoto supported Nagumo's decision to not launch the 3rd wave but later regretted it. Had they launched it the estimated damage would have kept the US Navy out of action for up a year. We'd have not been capable of doing what we did at Midway. The war could have lasted 2-3 more years if Japan had taken Midway in a cakewalk.

Of the Jap Naval fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor, by the end of the war, they were all sunk.

As for the citizens of Japan holding any animosity over the Atomic Bombs, had they not been dropped and the US launched an amphibious invasion, the end result would have been even a higher number of dead Japs than from the 2 A-bombs. Not to mention the estimated casualties of the US Army and Marines being as high as 1 million. So, we really did Japan a favor by dropping those bombs. The Army were training for the land invasion up til the time the bombs were dropped and they surrendered. My dad's division was slated to be one of the spearhead divisions. He said he didn't expect he or most of his friends would have survived had they invaded as was being planned. They were replacing the soldier's rifles with M3 Grease Guns in preparation for the invasion, he said, because they figured it would be mostly very close in fighting. The M3 for those who don't know was a .45 cal sub machinegun. Fired the same 45 ACP round as the 1911 pistol and the heavier Thompson sub machinegun, but with a little slower rate of fire than the Thompson.

[Hefe]

I used to be appalled by the dropping of the A bombs, but I sadly agree with the decision now that I know the circumstances surrounding it.

I've been digitizing the family photos & this weekend I scanned one of my old man on shore leave in San Francisco just before he shipped out to active duty in the Pacific after Pearl Harbor. It was taken in a saloon called Bimbos that apparently had live "mermaids" swimming there. He & his buddy were obviously really blitzed & very young.

[ArchieBunker]

Just ask anyone who was against the dropping of the A Bombs about the Battle of Okinawa, which was a prelude to what the invasion of mainland Japan would have been. Ask them about that and they give you a vacant look. There were more people killed in The battale of Okinawa than there was when we dropped the bomb on Aug 6th...............

[Lefty]

Just ask anyone who was against the dropping of the A Bombs about the Battle of Okinawa, which was a prelude to what the invasion of mainland Japan would have been. Ask them about that and they give you a vacant look. There were more people killed in The battale of Okinawa than there was when we dropped the bomb on Aug 6th...............

The casualties were about the same depending on which estimates you go by.. Estimates of civilians killed on Okinawa were 42k to 150k. US Military killed was between 12 and 13k. Jap military about 95k killed. So conservatively, it would total about 154k killed on Okinawa if we use the 42k civilian total, or 260k + if we use the highest estimate.

Hiroshima deaths estimates ranged from 90k to 166k.

Nagasaki on Aug 9 was another 60k to 80k estimated.

Still, using any estimated totals, the high, the low, or half way in between, you make a good point, People who ignorantly condemn Truman's decision to drop the bombs are not looking at the complete picture.

BTW, the US killed far more Japs when we retook the Philippines in 1944-45. On Luzon alone, 205k Japs were killed while the US killed were about 8300. The total for the entire campaign was 336k Jap soldiers killed in the retaking of the PI while the US lost almost 14k.