Salaried Staff vs Bar Freelancers

[pdogg]

Some ladyboy bars have 100% salaried staff. Others completely rely on freelancers. While yet others are a mix of both.

Is one of the business models better for barowners?

What's best for the girls?

What's best for the customer?

As a customer, it rarely enters my mind as to whether or not the girl is on salary. I would imagine that there is more accountability if girl is on the staff. OTOH, if I wanted to take a girl for a week, I guess I could save on barfines if she turned out to be a freelancer.

For the girls, I would imagine a farm fresh girl could really use the salary, while a seasoned pro with a telephone chok full of numbers might prefer freelancing.

From the bar's perspective I haven't a clue.

Whadda you think?

[steveo941]

IT seems to be the trend, to go freelance, baby boom have all but one girl freelancing

horny bar are all freelance, talking to them about it they like to be able to start work when it suits them

if they have been up late with a customer, they can get sum rest and start work at 6 oclock

better than having to be in the bar at 2oclock, and get fined if there late,

if they make good money one week they can have a few nights off

if they are on salary they get one day of a month

the downside for the bar owner as happened to one bar last month, he opened the bar

on a election night, 3 girls turned up for work one went playing cards with the staff of the closed bar next door

so he had two working girls and the punters took one look and walked strait out,

you still have to pay a barfine if you take a freelancer thats part of the deal for working out of the bar

makes no differance to the punter, he can still go back to the bar if there is a problem with the girl

[Flatpack]

Interesting topic Pdogg and Steve makes some very good points.

As a customer and a bar owner I will give you my perspective.

As a customer I have had this crop up many times when barfing a girl and I have always said why should I pay a barfine when the girl is a freelancer, I just couldnt get my head around it.

At Sensations we have a mix of staff and freelancers, when we set up the bar I asked Paeng what is the situation with barfines for our freelancers, her answer didnt agree with me and I argued the case but when she put hers forward I had to agree with her.

When a girl asks if she can work at our bar we give them the choice of freelancing or being paid staff. If they are staff they have to start and finish at a certain time, the freelancers can come and go as they please. In a lot of respects the girls are not true freelancers they are more like staff working flexible hours.

Customers pay a barfine whether the girl is staff or flexible and its not so much about the money because what the bar gets is a very small amount, its about the principle.

Our barfines are 300 baht, staff will receive 100 baht of this, the bar gets 200, flexible staff get 200 baht, the bar receives 100, as you can see the bar gets a very small amount from the flexible staff.

With all girls you have a comeback from the bar, if there is a problem and we know that its the girls fault you will get your barfine back. Paeng will also give the girls free drinks throughout the night as a kind of payment.

I think the problem mainly arises when you own a beer bar, I doubt if horny bar or baby boom have ever had a complaint about paying the fine on a freelancer, I believe this is because the girls work from inside the building, our girls mainly sit on the customer side unless they are serving drinks. The guys that will moan about the fines are probably the same guys that would have taken many Ezy girls and without a complaint, yet 99% were freelancers, its also believed that Pooks are all staff, wrong, many are freelancers.

Sensations have already had one comment in a trip report about paying the barfine on one of our freelancers, yet we are doing nothing different to any other bar in Pattaya.

Like I say its about the principle, if you owned a shop selling watches would you allow a competitor to sit in your shop with a sign saying we sell the same watches but they are cheaper! thats why Paeng has made it very clear to the freelancers that if they take a customer a barfine has to be paid whether the customer or the girl pays it. They are under no illusions that if Paeng catches the girls cheating her she will knock them from one end of the bar to the other.

If you really want a freelancer then beach road is full of them but we all know the risks, owning a bar in Thailand is by no means a money making machine so there has to be a bit of give and take on both sides.

[garrydirty]

This can be a hard one at times if a girl is a FL then there are times i dont mind paying the BF if say its around 11pm to 1pm however if the bars just going to close well BF for what i say shes FL where is she going anyway? off to look for another customer? I will tell you what really piss me off when a girl is working FL in a bar? Ladydrinks thats what gets up my nose why am i forking out for a LD when she dont even work bar? Usually if a girl is FL i offer them the bar-fine as a tip so in some places in Patts i am laying out 1500baht a night with a girl...like i say its the ladydrinks that get me say i take a FL from one bar right, pay her bar fine and go to another bar i aint paying ladydrinks for her am i? but shes still FL aint she? If a girl works bar then know problem thats a bar-fine, Theres security for a girl that works bar as she is paid at the end ov each month, but most ov the old-hands that no the score end up FL....well thats what i see in Patts........Good topic this, i am just giving my honest answer....Regards Garry

[Luung]

For me it varies with the location, up here in Chiang Mai I'll go for freelancers 95% of the time, but that's because the Chiang Mai bar scene as become so unrealistically priced, it's about the same as Phuket nowdays & to put it bluntly, the talent just ain't there for that type of price tag & the demands for ladydrinks a pretty vicious too! As well as that, the freelance scene is so much tamer up here & I'm known by so many of them, so I can usually get a new girl checked out on the spot, so to speak.

However, in Pattaya I'll go for girls attached to bars maybe 70/80% of the time, because as Flatpack says about the Beach Bar, it just ain't fuckin' safe out there! I have no problems at all with reasonably priced ladydrinks or barfines & the logic to both should be obvious to all. Same as Mr. Dirty, it's the constant requests for unrealistically priced ladydrinks that bring out the worser side of me & demanding a barfine as the sun's virtually coming up will most definitely get an emotional response from me too. If I've been spending my money in a fuckin' place all night, I really do think that at around 3.00am or later both the girl & bar can/should ‘suck it up’, especially as I’m an LT punter at heart & by then I’ll be paying for all but a ST.

I have to say that I used to do shed loads more freelancers in Pattaya, fully relishing the thrill of flaunting the dangers of the beach in the wee early hours, but as I get older & start slowing up, what was once thrilling can now become crepy or at times even chilling... And at the end of the day, seeking cheap thrills just isn't worth potentially ruining a holiday for.

[mardhi]

Is one of the business models better for barowners?

What's best for the girls?

What's best for the customer?

Whadda you think?

Is one of the business models better for barowners?

From cost point, Freelancer staff win hands down - there could never be any arguement as they cost zero and any shared revenue deal only kicks in if someone buys them a drink or barfines them. For sure this is the most profitable (for a bar) model.

From control point - Salaried staff win hands down - it means you can control (to some degree) how many girls are in at any given time.

What's best for the girls?

Freelance = suits a lot of girls, however they (the girls) often have little or no loyalty to any one bar and are frequently seen moving around 4/5 venues in one night - in essence trying to 'cherry pick'. One of the dangers is often under estimated and that is the "pack mentality" that they (have to) adopt. Simply put they are turf fighters and potentially can mean these girls have a more vicious streak as they have been exposed to more incidents & fights with other girls. IMHO, freelancers are also more likely to thieve from customers. Even if a complaint is leveled, they still have 3/4 more other bars to operate from. If st goes down a bar will lose the entire group of friends who form that clique. In essence bars who allow freelancers are to some degree held at ransom as they are not paying for the labour force.

For salaried staff, they get a guaranteed level of salary for working a certain number of hours. They have surprising amount of flexibility, going home, days off etc. They get paid a salary regardless of how well the bar does in terms of numbers of customers. This is the safest option for a girl to work in this environment but it tends to suit only the more disciplined girls.

What's best for the customer?

There is an increasing trend for customers to actively avoid paying barfines and its epecially the case for guys who have been around the scene for a while/live in Thailand/Asia. Nothing will stop that as the precedence has been set already by some bars on using freelancers and also the growth of the Internet dating sites, Mobile phones etc etc. Simply put there are now more 'channels' than ever for girls and customers.

Where it really becomes a concern for some bar owners is the question of 'discovery' and then a perceived right that they then own that piece of arse. Its not a view I personally hold, however I can understand some reaching that conclusion. This is further comounded by the professional shopper's - guys who trawl the bars, often with the least amount of drink they can get away with, trying to eye up their next conquest and obtaining their phone number. This is becoming an increasing concern to many owners and its very centric in Pattaya. I know of a couple guys who have been asked not to return to Anaconda for doing this. However understand it correctly its for the most part the guy who one buys ONE drink the entire time he is there, gropes & fondles the girls (no drinks) and then asks for their phone number to arrange a meet often the following afternoon before they start work. The bars KNOW all the guys who do this and some are members on this forum. Its one thing to be a good customer of a bar, but another to be considered a 'bad' customer. Good customers are well regarded - even if they do not spend a lot - however come in regularly for a couple of beers.

Shared staff - some salary/some freelance

Keeping your staff happy is one of the most difficult jobs owners have. If your staff are not happy, they will ensure you get royally Fu*^ed in one way or another.

I will share the experience of Guess Bar who have historically been a 100% salaried staff bar. About 18 months ago, the bar allowed some 'names' back who wanted to work freelance but exclusive to Guess Bar. Within 3 weeks, there were major staff problems. What was happening is that the freelancers were coming in at prime customer times and getting customers. The girls who had come in at 6pm were sat twiddling their thumbs as the famous faces were in, acting like showoffs, speaking better English and wearing better clothes. In hindsight, it was probably the worse single thing Guess Bar has ever done. It nearly crashed the whole bar and at one point it got so bad, it looked like 15 girls were going to walk as a result. Luckily as communication is good, this was quickly picked up on and the decision taken to eliminate all the freelancers. It was no great loss to the bar. As it is, they only came in something like 3 days out of 7 and for an average of 2 hours a time. However the damage to the moral of the staff who dilligently come in on time 6 days a week and work a full shift, was akin to a tornado ripping through the bar.

The reason above is why you will never find Guess/Anaconda having split schemes - it just causes way too much arguement within the bar. Luckily as Anaconda is establishing itself, its not having these kind of issues. In both bars, the atmosphere is great - of course, the full time hobby of Thai LB's is moaning but in the bigger scheme of things they are all content with the bar.

The future

I remember writing something, I believe on LB69 about 18 months ago, that the current business models in Pattaya are pretty screwed up. I dont know how it will turn out though. What is clear is that when you have 30 odd LB bars and multiple 'hiring' schemes in place - something will have to give, somewhere. Why? because the market is saturated with too many venues and too few punters using them, often preffering to sit in open bars where the beer is cheaper/music is quieter etc etc.

In case many of you are not currently here in Pattaya, you might be amazed at how few girls are in each venue at the moment. The often held up example of good bars are typically running on 2 (yes, seriously) - 5 girls. These are often aircon venues with very high overheads. they are bleeding money like nobodies business. To survive & prosper, bars should be looking at 8-10 hostesses as a minimum. However as many are working on purely freelance staffing, they are finding the staff don't care to work or have often just given up and gone home.

The free markets will kick in and people will soon realise that LB's bars are not a profitable undertaking as there are too many bars chasing too few punters. The stronger one's will survive and the weaker one's will fail - simple really. What I do see happening is that a few bars will up their game considerably. Currently nobody is occupying the coveted top spot in the same way as GG bars/gogo's. By that I mean, lots of top tier staff (think 30-40), well fitted out interior, proper management, proper service staff and charging premium prices. I can assure you that this will happen very soon - its not being done now but it will happen and when it occurs it will clean up on hiring the best stunners in the city as they will likely be offering 20,000b up salaries. The days of the 70b beer will be long gone in a venue like this. Why? because the precedance has been set already - GG Gogos have proven that by filling a room with 40+ girls dancing in bikini's you can charge 150b for a beer, 200b for lady drinks and even as much as 2000b for barfines. Even more important is that they are very profitable !!!! As rental rates continue rising, the only way to survive is to go way down market (playing a volume game on selling cheap beer) or go way higher and deliver a premium offering that really does deliver.

[Flatpack]

Some very good points there Mardhi and I agree with you about the future. There are many go go's in patts that are paying their girls 20-25,000 baht a month, drinks and barfines are expensive but the bars make a lot of money, its a system that you wouldn't have thought would work but it does.

Staff is the way to go but sadly for the little bars like Sensations that are just starting out its not possible to pay the monthly wages during such low times, you need very deep pockets which im sure you will be well aware of. For us having a small amount of freelancers is a must to help the bar survive.

Nobody likes paying a barfine but its not thats its a new thing and every bar does it but some guys actually take pride in not paying a barfine. Sometimes it can be annoying, a guy can play on our free pool table all night but then wants to shaft the bar over the barfine, sounds fair doesnt it, espically when you think that for the bars that do charge to play pool they can can make at least 20,000 per month off one table!

In all honesty for the guys that try and get out of paying I would prefer them to stay away from the bar as we probably have nothing to gain from them, like you say its the same guys that will nurse a beer for 3 hours while being entertained, and they are the first to put a bad report on the forums about a problem they may have had but they will rarely write anything good, better off without them.

I can understand why you had the problem with the freelancers in guess bar, our staff would feel the same way if a girl just rocked up and took a customer that they had been talking to for a while, thats why the freelancers are made to pay a barfine. One good thing about our freelancers is that they do seem loyal to the bar and don't tend to wander, but I think this is mainly due to the fact that they are doing very well and are being barfined a lot, at the moment they have no need to go looking for customers elsewhere.

Maybe im too honest but I have never done a bar out of a barfine, even when I took a freelancer from Ezy and kept her for over a week, I went into the bar when it was time to go home and payed what I owed. I do appreciate that some guys go to Patts on very limited budgets and try to do what they can to save money but they still want the security of taking a girl from a bar, they just dont want to pay for that security.

Each to their own but I think the majority are honest guys and there are just a few bad eggs.

[mardhi]

FP - a free pool table is not always a smart bet. unless you associate a value with it, customers do not either. You have an excellent table in the bar and its easily worth 20b a game. Perhaps more importantly is that by it being free, one person could monopolise it all night and annoy other guys who want to play and then decide to move elsewhere as they cannot get on it.

Point in case is over on another forum a guy complaining about wi-fi he claims to have paid for not working reliably in his hotel. he paid 650b for a night with free wi-fi. His perception is that the hotel failed to deliver something it offered. probably better for the hotel to either up its rate and invest in a better connection/system - or charge for it on a daily/weekly basis as an extra. I'd hate to be the hotelier thinking about spending probably 50,000b setting up a decent network and not getting a cent in return. (this hotel runs on typically 90-100% occupancy as the rates are so cheap). As it is, they are probably using a cheap domestic system linked to the lowest monthly rate they can find - totally not fit for purpose and thus complaints come in over a 'free' service.

Its a very difficult call and perception is often reality.

[Flatpack]

Mardhi,

I agree, its a tough call, ours is free because we had to look at the competition around us, the majority if not all the bars in the complex let the customer play for free.

In some respects though I guess we could still charge because we are the only ladyboy bar in the complex and thats what our customers come for. They could in essence go to one of the other bars and play free pool but thats not why they are there. I would like nothing better than to make a possible 20,000 a month from the table, it would go some way to paying the rent every month however we are trying to sell the bar and its a bonus for the customer and for our staff, the customer has fun and so do the girls, which makes a happy bar.

Very good point about the hotel wi-fi and a tough choice for the owner, sadly with the poor tourism in Thailand at the moment to a certain extent the customer can call the shots, espically with hotels and you can see why many people are going out of business.

I honestly think the amount of ladyboy bars will dwindle in the very near future, there is no way they can all survive unless tourism gets a serious injection, its early days for us and time will tell.

[thaibound]

i don't own a bar. don't want to own a bar. dont know the first thing about owning a bar. and here i think i speak for must punters--i could care less whether the girls are FL or salaried--as well-evidenced by the fact that most of us really have no clue which they are. it just doesn't matter to the punter how the girls are paid by the bar--what does matter is that the girls are paid. and how that might effect the over-all positive ambience of the bar--there are a couple of bars where the girls carry enough frowns and bad attitude that whatever the policy is there i'm just going to say it's wrong. and where the girls are happy and the customers treated well--that's where the policy is right. i'll leave it to the more knowledgable to fill in the blanks on which bars are which.

but i still find this a very interesting exchange between knowledgable bar owners with extremely variant ranges of experience--probably a range equal to that of various punters who have experienced everything from "thank god i paid a barfine with that b&^ch who stole my iphone" to "fucking barfines are ridiculous."

i lie somewhere in the vast middle.

i won't bore you with my own slowly learned personal rules of barfining, but generally speaking, given the miniscule percentage of my total expenses i devote to barfines (about equal to what my T-Bills are paying now ) i actually prefer paying a (reasonable) barfine. not the least of reasons for doing so is my desire for pattaya *not* to lose its vast array of lb-devoted bars. however....barfines are a two-way street. if they are either irrationally high or guarantee me no 'protection' against catastrophe. i can't even imagine going back to ( bar name omitted here to protect the innocent--i.e., my ass from flaming) with a "complaint". i don't see the point in paying those bars a barfine--but rather than trying to skip the barfine, i just go to another bar--a bar whose existence i wish to encourage.

for example, when i walk into a bar at 3:30am and buy myself a drink and buy the first hot ladyboy i see a drink and decide i'm too tired for another so decide to barfine the cutie and i am told her barfine is 800baht...at 3:30am...i don't try to take the girl without paying the barfine. i just go to another bar. and so long as there are dozens of bars, my approach will sustain. if, however the future holds that there will be 2 or 3 lb mega-bars in pattaya (think Nana) so that they no longer give a shit about my individual business or the quality of their service because customers will have no choice but to tolerate their behavior--that is a monopolistic future i anticipate with dread .

so i say, freelance or salary--if you like the bar, pay the barfine.

and as for the pool table--charge 20 baht dammit. if the punter can't part with 20baht, he should go to the next fucking bar--or offer to play me and if he wins, i'll pay it. (then force him to play route67 to keep the table). sorry to veer way the fuck off-topic (you know who will be all over my ass any minute) but i think paying for a *good* pool table is as important as paying barfines--good bars with good tables and good girls (be they FL or salary) well deserve both.

the plethora of lb bar alternatives in pattaya certainly won't last forever, but let's drag it out as long as we can, shall we?

so, pay up wayne.

and party down garth.

[Flatpack]

Excellent post Thaibound +1

[duke007]

I agree Flatpack, an excellent post Tommy and I too am one of those "must punters"

[mardhi]

To a Thai, logic would dictate that if you bring in reduced barfines after a certain hour, then you equally apply an even higher barfine the earlier the girl is barfined. That is how they think. As it is, keeping it constant is about as good as anyone could expect. I do not know of any bar, that has made variable barfine amounts by time, actually work. Many have tried - all have reverted to a standard system from what I can tell.

Different levels apply to different staff for a number of reasons. There are some staff a bar owner does NOT want barfined. These either attract big volumes of customers or are doing a job that if they leave, needs to be filled by someone else. These are typically bar tenders, cashiers, service staff. Busy bars need all of these staff. if you want to save the outgoing, your better to choose a hostess. In many bars these staff are also the highest paid and they have no cuts that are commonplace with hostess type staff. In essence their primary focus is NOT to be barfined.

As I said before, if you take out for example, 3 of the best looking girls out of a bar, drink sales will fall. Its even more noticeable in a GG gogo - if 10 lookers are gone and your left with 10 chubby numbers, customers won't even order one drink - its head through the curtain and off they go. Income from barfines = 6,000b. Lost drink revenue = perhaps 20,000b - some of the numbers are that big and often its way bigger than that.

[deepthroat]

Great post Thaibound. I'm right there with you on all points except - what the f**k are you doing entering bars at 3:30AM?

Jeez, I thought folks our age are supposed to be eating dinner at 4pm and in bed by 9.

[thaibound]

Great post Thaibound. I'm right there with you on all points except - what the f**k are you doing entering bars at 3:30AM?

Jeez, I thought folks our age are supposed to be eating dinner at 4pm and in bed by 9.

and i was sir, i was--i promise. in fact, i went straight from the bar at 3:30 to dinner and after some pre-sleep entertainment, i was tucked safely in bed by 9 that very same a.m., just as you so correctly proposed.

so, i guess we're stuck agreeing on everything. aren't we old folks boring?

[TEXASMAC]

Honestly, as long as the agree that I am a Handsome Man, I am HAPPY !

[iceberg]

Different levels apply to different staff for a number of reasons. There are some staff a bar owner does NOT want barfined. These either attract big volumes of customers or are doing a job that if they leave, needs to be filled by someone else. These are typically bar tenders, cashiers, service staff. Busy bars need all of these staff.

I myself like the bartender(pic taker) at Guess Bar, hope you don't mind if I BF her mardhi!

[pacman]

Good posts from all, a comprehensive analysis of the question. And Mardhi has nailed the situation from the bar owners perspective. As to the prospect of two or three big go-go's employing all the best girls, that is something I have thought possible for a long time.

Everytime I am in Happy a-Go Go or similar, I am amazed at the number of punters inside & the volume of drinks being served. But I wonder if there are enough LB lovers who could make up the numbers night after night in a LB go go? I mean these GG bars have over a hundred people inside on any night, could a LB bar do likewise?

Add to that the current global recession & the likelihood of a giant LB Go Go seems a way-off. But I don't have a great record in making predictions & someone may be planning one as I write. I hope they have a lot of money.

[mardhi]

Good posts from all, a comprehensive analysis of the question. And Mardhi has nailed the situation from the bar owners perspective. As to the prospect of two or three big go-go's employing all the best girls, that is something I have thought possible for a long time.

Everytime I am in Happy a-Go Go or similar, I am amazed at the number of punters inside & the volume of drinks being served. But I wonder if there are enough LB lovers who could make up the numbers night after night in a LB go go? I mean these GG bars have over a hundred people inside on any night, could a LB bar do likewise?

Add to that the current global recession & the likelihood of a giant LB Go Go seems a way-off. But I don't have a great record in making predictions & someone may be planning one as I write. I hope they have a lot of money.

Everytime I am in Happy a-Go Go or similar, I am amazed at the number of punters inside & the volume of drinks being served. But I wonder if there are enough LB lovers who could make up the numbers night after night in a LB go go? I mean these GG bars have over a hundred people inside on any night, could a LB bar do likewise?

It will come for sure - the numbers do not stack up on small scale venues unless they are primarily a Knocking house on the premises. The girls will follow the money, exactly the same as GG gogos - it is hardly rocket science in a P4P situation. The gogo's will charge higher drink prices, have much better entertainment and will costs probably 10,000,000b up to create.

There will be outcry from lower budget folk on forums as they cannot afford to step foot in the place unless they have cheap draft beer. It will be exactly the same situation as what occurred when Walking Street expanded its gogo's bars hugely - but its how things develop - the smart money will build products that appeal to guys with money and not afraid to spend it by creating a top rate experience - one could have done it already - they had all the basics in place but have blown it by indifferent service and perceived lack of controls in place. In these venues, you will probably find 70% of the revenue comes from curious guys, couples etc etc - only 30% would come from dedicated LB fans I suspect. The girls incomes will lift hugely and the market will determine pricing, exactly as has happened on GG Gogos.

Last point, it will be done either of two ways - by a foreigner who already understands the GG gogo's inside out and just see's LB's as purely another avenue or it will be done by a Thai owner, again well experienced in managing and owning large scale operations. Both will have excellent relations with the police and be known to run tight ships. Anybody who attempted to do it without the knowledge (and that does not come from someone who has worked in a bar beer) or with the senior level connections will get eaten alive, spend a fortune and probably lose it all within a year.

[seven]

There will be outcry from lower budget folk on forums

i´m crying already.

[pacman]

- one could have done it already - they had all the basics in place but have blown it by indifferent service and perceived lack of controls in place.

I deliberately didn't mention that 'one'. So often when I comment on Obsessions Pattaya aka The Kitten Club, I draw negative comments from people with an axe to grind with the place. But I will say that they have done it, not could have done it, however their longterm customer base is now a lot more conservative with expenditure than they were in the day.

They still have occasion when someone spends like a drunken sailor, mainly because they probably are a drunken sailor. Tales of US servicemen flying in from the Middle East & blowing several thousand dollars in a night are too numerous to count. The main hotel suites being supplied with every available girl from the bar are legendary & this has happened on many, many occasions. They aren't alone with stories about big spenders of course but the days when this was commonplace would appear to be long gone.

As to their indifferent service, it really isn't as bad as it is portrayed. Some customers can get difficult when under the influence of liquor & they do tempt fate by handing over uncounted wads of cash. It amazes me they are as protected as well as they are, I have seen many times when the service girl carefully counts out every last baht in change when the customer was in no condition to check.

And I should comment about 'the perceived lack of controls in place'. Nowhere in Pattaya has any place invested more money in a computerised system designed to protect us from overcharging. Every single drink order is sent out with a docket that has to be signed by the customer which is then included with the final total so all orders can be verified before payment. It is impossible to have your bill padded inside the bar, despite what some "customers" would have us believe.

I use inverted commas on the word "customers" because anyone who knows the history of the place knows it has been attacked for everything by people whose interests lie elsewhere. Competitors, customers who didn't get their way, who knows who these people are, when you have been big enough long enough, you are bound to attract their ire.

And the sad part of the story which might help explain the direct lack of owner involvement is that of all the people on earth, he is the only one who will be arrested the moment he sets foot in his own bar. So he has to trust Thais to oversee Thais & if you have never tried it, that is a not a recipe for award winning management. They do a decent job but there can be a touch of Thai-people versus the rest.

Or to put it simply, I have adapted the old joke - Rule Number One - Thai people are always right. Rule Number Two - When Thai people are wrong, refer to Rule Number One.

[deepthroat]

I was smirking at the mention of that 'one' as I thought I recognized the reference too. Look, I've spent plenty of time bashing the place, but I'm willing to give it another shot. I think I speak for many when I say that one of the biggest frustrations is that the place could be so fantastic, if only.... and it's that knowing that it could be that great which makes me so pissed when it doesn't live up to what it could be.

My biggest gripe was a perceived ripoff a couple of years ago, but I'm willing to try it again this winter and give it another shot. They've definitely always got some great talent in there. The other gripe for me is the pushiness of the staff, but I'm a big boy and should be able to get beyond that.

[iceberg]

We all know what the biggest problem is in Obsession! and I do mean the "biggest" as in a fat monster! Why they still employ this person(who is so pushy for LDs and not very polite at all!)is beyond me(??)as the LBs and GGs are very hot!

This topic has been discussed many times on the various forums,and it looked like it had been addressed when this person was no longer there,but it looks like they welcomed her back, so business as usual! 80

I will visit on my upcoming trip, but will always pay as I go(no tab/bin) and will never bend/break to offfers of LDs to "JabbatheHut"

No Apology for this post!

[deepthroat]

I have a complex "love/hate" relationship with Rigga. Paccers can probably explain her better than anyone, so I'll just say that although I despise her pushiness I can also appreciate her at times and leave it at that.

[pacman]

I was never a fan of Riga. I have discussed her at some length with the management & told them exactly what she does. I was listened to & I know she was spoken to. I was surprised she kept her position but after it was explained to me, I understand why.

Riga isn't there because we love her. She is there because she is the most effective manager the bar has ever had. She commands respect from the girls & they all obey her direction. Riga not only has the authority to sort out a dispute but she will actually do it. And she won't hesitate to order her fellow Thais to back down & even make them lose face, if it comes to that.

And that is no small thing. As anyone who has seen Thais trying to discipline Thais would know, they are not good at going against a fellow Thai & they are not good at following instructions that favour farang over Thai.

So I let my own bias go & embraced her & found her to be a very nice person underneath all the blubber. She still likes to try it on me when we meet. She won't hesitate to suggest a 100 baht tip or a beer but she laughs it off when I say no & doesn't harbour any grudge. And I certainly have benefitted from the occasional times when I have tipped her, she has stepped in & helped me with my photographic arrangements or translation issues. She has even reciprocated me with a beer but I don't suggest anyone should expect the same.

I consider her an ally in the bar who is able to help me in case of a misunderstanding in the bar. It hasn't been a big issue for me but I have seen her calming drunken patrons down & putting the girls in their place many times. And that is why she has the support of the management. As they told me, customers come & go but Riga saves us a lot of drama.