Salaried Staff vs Bar Freelancers

[deepthroat]

Well said Pacman. I've also heard stories of unexpected kindness from Riga from other experienced gents on the forum. I too have found that if I laugh and tell her "I cannot" when she asks for a tip or a drink things have gone fine. On at least one occasion I gave her a tip just for the hell of it.

And she does do a reasonable job of keeping the girls in line as far as I can tell.

I think she's a "necessary evil" in many ways, although the term "evil" is far too strong to apply to her. But it gets the meaning across.

[4:17]

As someone who spent much of a misspent youth slinging drinks and eventually managing a few bars – this is back in the States – and as a patron of the ladyboy scene in Thailand for several years now, I've found this thread particularly interesting. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone, but particularly Mardhi, Flatpack and Pacman.

I've always been kind of curious as to how that freelance vs. salaried staff model played out in bars where there are both. Of course I've talked to the girls about it at length, but have never really had a chance to talk to a bar owner about it. I did discuss it with Lita once, but that was followed by much drinking and debauchery and the details of that conversation are vague at best.

So again, thanks to Mardhi and Flatpack for the illuminating discussion.

As a patron, I suppose perhaps it's because of my time in the service industry, but as long as they are reasonable – this being very subjective, of course, what's reasonable – I've never had a problem paying barfines, ladydrinks, tipping (when its deserved) etc. I understand the reasoning behind a flat-rate for barfines regardless of what time it is, and that the larger go-gos can charge higher prices, etc.

Bit off topic, but since others broached it: I'm of two minds on paying for pool. I understand its a source of revenue for a bar, and a consistent one (much more than one might think), and it brings in at least a few customers who might not otherwise come in, or compels them to stay longer than they would otherwise. Buddha knows I would have spent considerably less time and baht in the past in Guess Bar were it not for the pool table. I probably would never even set foot in VooDoo in Nana were it not for its tables.

On the other hand, sometimes I've made it a point to go to a specific bar simply because I didn't have to pay to play pool. Sometimes its a bar that I might not otherwise patronize (and spend money). So I guess it works both ways. But then there are other factors – there are few enough places I can go and hangout with ladyboy bar girls that aren't go-go bars, so I'm even more willing than usual to pay to play – heh – pool in a place like Guess or Anaconda. That doesn't mean I'm going to pay something exorbitant, but 20-baht a game? Sure.

But this also cuts both ways. I've walked into Guess and some guy has 20 coins lined up on the table and he's playing with his teerak and isn't interested in playing anyone else. Unless there is a girl I'm interested in – which granted, is often the case – I'm not going to be hanging out as long as I would otherwise, if flying solo. Of course, there have been times when I've been that guy, but then usually if a fellow punter walks in and wants to play, I'm happy to shoot a game with him, and if he wins, it's his table, if he wants it.

Anyway, that's my $0.02/0.64 baht (at current exchange rates).

[iceberg]

Well said 4:17 , I don't like people stacking the table, this is not cool! Everyone should have a turn at having fun and I also like to play pool as well as monger.

Come on guys don't be selfish!?

I myself have worked in the service industry and still do so it's great to hear other like minded folks opinions!

[pacman]

I have also put in time in the hospitality business. Not recently but given that others have stated their credentials, I may as well add mine too.

I have run bars that had a number of pool tables, in one hotel about 20 of them scatterred over 3 bars, they were an essential part of the bars success, & no one ever expected them to be free. And there was nothing to gain from it anyway, the tables were always well patronised, it wasn't as if more people would come to drink just to save themself the price of a pool game.

I urge FlatPack to start charging for his table. When something is free, no one values it. By putting a cost on it, more people might get a game. And he should also ban anyone from lining up coins on the table so as to secure the table for themselves. That isn't fair on others who would like a game.

Where I worked, the next guy would challenge the holder of the table to a game, the winner would then be challenged in turn. Perhaps in LOS the person playing surrenders the table to the next person in line once they have finished their game, they can then add their name to the list for their next go.

Whatever FlatPack decides must become the house rule in order to prevent any arguments. It isn't hard to get people to accept what is customary in the bar, the problem comes when someone just wants to be greedy. And they will get a whole lot less greedy when they have to pay for every game.

Every baht counts in these difficult times, several thousand baht a week just being given away is crazy. Nothing worth having is ever free.

[pdogg]

There will be outcry from lower budget folk on forums as they cannot afford to step foot in the place unless they have cheap draft beer.

Spent allot time this year running around the lady gogos with a str8 mate. He has money to burn and throws his money around with reckless abandon. He says he enjoys being a big spender but would not be able to afford doing it in Las Vegas. So I was part of his entourage.

The majority of the WS gogos do have a cheap draft beer option even some of top tier ones. But I noticed something odd. Most customers were not drinking the cheap draft.

[mardhi]

Spent allot time this year running around the lady gogos with a str8 mate. He has money to burn and throws his money around with reckless abandon. He says he enjoys being a big spender but would not be able to afford doing it in Las Vegas. So I was part of his entourage.

The majority of the WS gogos do have a cheap draft beer option even some of top tier ones. But I noticed something odd. Most customers were not drinking the cheap draft.

I think that is more a reflection on the demographics of the punters that anything else. Its clear that guys on lower incomes would be unlikely to be in a gogo every night of the week. Aside from the fact its gets boring very quickly - they will more likely be in a quieter bar and then take the odd trip as a highlight/treat to a gogo. The gogo market is really appealing to the holidaymaker with a full wallet. The original idea behind using draft beer, was to fill seats early on in the night, and thus make the bars look full when more customers came in, so they stay. These happy hour draft would often finish around 9-10pm by which time, most bars wanted the seats back for full paying punters. However some decided to keep draft going all night at much lower prices but I suspect the stock beer these days is Singha, Heineken, San Mig Light all served in bottles.

[DownLoLarry]

I think that is more a reflection on the demographics of the punters that anything else. Its clear that guys on lower incomes would be unlikely to be in a gogo every night of the week. Aside from the fact its gets boring very quickly - they will more likely be in a quieter bar and then take the odd trip as a highlight/treat to a gogo. The gogo market is really appealing to the holidaymaker with a full wallet.

Sounds right to me. Gogo's can get old very quickly. And not too much fun if you don't have a girl on your lap. So it's just not going to be much fun to the guy who let's say after his rent is paid has 1000 baht per day to spend which is probably not far off from the median expat budget.

[beijo]

What are we talking about here ? How many punters are there ready to blow 20 000 baht @ day every day? I think this topic looks strictly at bar owners and ignores the average punter (average as I surmise reading this and other forums). I myself consider myself average and I am not the type to run up a few thousand Baht bar bill. I may have 2 or 3 beer and pay a couple of lady drinks, I dont mind paying 300 or even 500 Baht bar fine but hell needs to freeze over before I pay a 2000 baht bar fine or blow the 20 000 baht @ night. After all I am not visiting Thailand to support the local bars, I am here to have fun and shag a couple of LB's. My budget for a 21 day visit to Patts would be 4500 Baht / day or roughly 95 000 Baht in total excluding Hotel. I dont have much sympathy for the bar owners if most of that goes for the my and the LB's benefit. If the future looks as discribed above, my guess would be that most punters will hang out in the cheap open bars and look for freelance LB's or have previously arranged contacts. I would not be surprised if most LB's would go this route as well rather than wait for the "great spender" who shows up in a blue moon. I have seen this in other places where the establishments jacked up the prices to just see their clientel disappear.

Lets hear what some of the other "average Punters" think about the above bar owners projections

[sailor]

This has been a really interesting read - Props goes out to all contributors, bar owners and punters alike. I'll just add my few thoughts too

Salary vs FL:

FL staff:

Well....it's cheaper for the bar - but that's about the only positive aspect I can see

Salaried staff:

The bar has more control over the numbers of workers at any given time and have a good selection instead of a suddenly deserted bar without warning.

Punters will get a little more security because of the girls involvement with a specific bar.

Bar Fine:

People travel halfway around the world to enjoy a good time with LBs - and piss and moan over a 300-500 THB bar fine (salaried staff mind you).....If that's what's ruining your budget...then you should've stayed home working a bit longer so you could have afforded that insurance and support of the bar...

That little rant aside: There have been mentions of Hillary bar, a place i also like to go at times. One day i was inthere for quite a long time playing pool with my steady GG there and (on and off) 2 of her friends - being a longtime customer there they look after me pretty well and from time to time i, singlehandedly, rack up (when in the mood for going on the piss) quite a bill (up to 5K THB) for drinks and pool - that happened this day also, drinking and playing until they closed and the girls started going elsewhere, I had ofcourse BF'ed my steady GG and as we were on our way out she asked me if I wanted to go play more pool, I was going: "sure...you think X and Y want to come along and play also?" (they were on their way home or whereever already) - she asked and they went "sure"

- and then things went pear-shaped..... the manager (whom I know really well) comes running and tells me I have to barfine X and Y also.

I told her in no uncertain terms that I would not barfine girls from a bar which had already closed and that she should know I wasn't trying to pull a fast one when having already spent quite a substantial amount of cash inthere and being a repeat costumer. Nevertheless she stood her ground on the subject, keeping the girls in the bar while i went off with my GG.

Edit:

I noticed a need for clarification on above incident- The history is: When I go there I always barfine the same girl (being a creature of habit when it comes to GGs), have never taken others or more than her - a fact which did not go unnoticed by staff and manager alike.

Therefore I felt that I was being treated unfairly and raised the issue again the following afternoon under 4 eyes with the manager - turns out there had been a crackdown within the Hillary group with emphasis on squeezing every baht possible out of every costumer on all staff levels and a way to rise to a higher position is ofcourse to make said position vacant........

end edit

Pool table fee:

With reference to abovementioned bar, then I've found that the challenge system at 20 baht/game seems to work really well there - winner stays - loser pays.....

That should also give the tight-arsed people out there an incentive to play their best *G*

[Jimslim]

A couple of interesting posts there Beijo and Sailor , well written .

[beijo]

Mardhi - A punters view for you. I come to Thailand for LB's GG's and sight seeing, you noticed bars are not on the list. Bars are at best a means to find what I am looking for. GoGo bars I leave to others and believe me it has nothing to do with my income level. Layed back places like La Bamba, Linda bar, Horny bar and a couple others on soi 6 suit me fine and i like to hang out for a while in those places and move on to the next until I find what I am looking for. There is no loyalty to any specific place and lets be honest most of the Patts bars are not much better than dumps. If I am looking for a nice place with the right ambience I might as well stay home and if I want to get stoned, again a good bottle of wine at home is much more pleasant and safer than any bar in Thailand. I cant comment on the pool table subject since I dont play pool. What I am trying to say is that I believe that most punters come to Thailand to find LB's or GG's at reasonable costs after having paid their airfare and hotels and will go to where ever they find what they are looking for.

[mardhi]

Beijo - the 20,000b punter you keep coming back is not correct. I gave an example that if a gogo bar loses it best 10 stunners for 6,000b in barfine income - it will likely lose 20,000b in drink revenue from customers who put their head around the curtain, see only a group of second tier girls and do not even stay for one drink, let alone 5 drinks. Its not one punter spending 20,000b but a series of guys who maybe spend 500-1000b each.

That is the challenge - guys go into gogo's to look at talent dancing - remove the talent and why stay ? That is why the models are changing.

[beijo]

Mardhi - I stand corrected, but I think the points I made are still valid. LB's, freelancers or salaried, are looking for customers and punters are looking for LB's, the location for contact is secondary. I wonder if parties and other events layed on by bars are economical and result in loyal customers. I myself actualy avoid such things because i would feel to much like a baloon chaser. But back to freelancers, for a punter who looks for a couple of days company I would think a freelancer from a bar would be preferable since he would have to pay a barfine only for the first day while with a salaried LB he would be have to pay the barfine for every day the LB is with him. LB's seem to prefer multiple day arrangements as well (good opportunity to milk the punter for the max). Most LB,S are hungry and by what I read on the forums is that most punters have a limited budget, i bet these two interests are not in conflict. Looks to me like life might be getting even more difficult for the bars in Patts

[SiamSam]

Well put Beijo. I concur.

[mardhi]

Looks to me like life might be getting even more difficult for the bars in Patts

You will no argument from me on that score - I have being saying it for years. Bars models in Pattaya and elsewhere are well & truly Fu*&ed in the medium to longer term. That is why the trends are slowly changing. The scene will evolve and its probably fair to say that the venues doing the best, are probably either a freelance pick up place like Insomnia/Marine disco etc or gogo bars. There are a few bar beers that also take in some serious money but they are in a small minority.