We are all gullible and there to be taken advantage off

[Coxy277]

I was chatting to a ex p4p ladyboy who has moved out of the lime lite living with her own shop about what she thinks of us guys who go to Thailand for the sex , she said its a 2way street the lb go to big city or holiday place to find love and a husband because they here it's possible to do that

When they get there they are very gullible and there for being taken advantage of (not just by use but by the bar owners ) after a wile of sleeping with fat smelly unclean tharang it seems they relize that they can turn it around and take advantage of us and we end up there prey they learn from others all the tricks good and bad some go for the heart others go straight for the wallet

Or a mixture of both in most casses

She also said that most guys are there because we are misfits in our own country we don't fit in any place we think when we are there that we are big and important (which is true until the baht runs out ) . But she also said that she met some kind loverly guys who she would always think nice of but is also guilty of telling lies to them so to get money from them and regrets that in some cases (I asked if I was one of them she said no as I been honest from start its just sex and friendship never love )

Also apart from her age she gave up the p4p because the new girls comming through are more hateful to other ladyboys mainly the older one they say she had her time go away let them do it now

She fears that Thailand is lost in a world of greed and would loose its place for holiday poeple because of western interference in the bar and girl business she doesn't mind us owning bars guesthouses hotels but we should always have a Thai manager and not interfere with the running of them so it can be done the Thai way

I think this is somthing we all knew about but I never heard any Thai realy say it out load

She blames tharang for most of the crime in her country she recons we have shown the Thais how to be dishonest and that the younger Thais do not think like Thais they are more like tharang

After saying all this she said she had to go bed and hope I will come see her next time I'm there

[SiamSam]

Very interesting perspective and undoubtedly very true in many (not all) circumstances.

[mardhi]

This is a common thought process and someone must be too blame. So its the foreigner. Despite only about 5% of the entire country ever coming into contact with them.......

Thailand has always been a country of have's (very very few) and have not's (like 99% of them) - however what is changing is that the have not's want more and the have's don't want them to have it. That is why the education system in this country is still stuck in the dark ages. They are kept uneducated for a reason and its nothing to do with foreigners - we don't set education policy etc etc. The greed factor is what is changing - everyone wants more money now and not content to be poor. There is a deep cultural change happening over the last few years and it will continue as the masses start to realise they are being trashed on continually by the people with the money. In my experience in business here - foreign companies are much more generous and fair than Thai owned companies.

[Tomcat]

I agree with Mardhi.. the Ladyboy perspective is just that and nothing else . Corruption in Thailand has bugger all to do with the Westerner and crime is there own problem other than in a few place like Pattaya but thats a small place anyway and it takes two to Tango as well

Also there are lies told all the time but i think most of us know about that and are deeply cynical. Having said that when i am in LOS with my favourite Ladyboy its very easy to fall back into the realm of self delusion where many of us live an awfull lot of the time of the time.

re the crime thing..

Actually therea an interesting article in New Scientist this week and basically given the chance we are all corrupt but in some places it is

worse than others so i dont think the blame game is to be invoked

Somalia , Irag and Afghanistan are in the top 4... where LOS is im not sure

[KenW]

mardhi I don't think wanting more money and not being content to be poor necessarily imply greed. That's a bit harsh. I don't know anyone who wants to be poor, but many who break out of poverty do it with morals intact. There's lots of greed about - agreed (pardon the terrible pun) - but it's mostly among the rich and the aspiring rich.

I quite admire good hard working honest folks who lift their lives and families out of poverty. Here in Vietnam amid the vast barren wasteland of lies and deceit there are little oases of goodness and honesty. I'm sure Thailand must be similar.

Tomcat, I won't swallow that one about all of us being corrupt or potentially so. That to me smacks of that old Nazi defence, of anyone would have done the same in the circumstances. I don't see evidence for that, and I think it's a weak argument, even if it gets into New Scientist disguised as reputable findings.

To all who mentioned it, I agree this blame the foreigner for all the rotten swill in some of these Asian cultures is just a tired kick-the-dog line that I find not only nasty, but so wrong it's not funny.

I think Coxy's friend makes some points that are valid. We go on a lot (or some of us do) about how they are always trying to do us down, but it's good to think from their perspective too. I love the bit about the smelly foreigners. I know if I was a LB there's no way I'd want to have close contact with an old smelly fart like me.

[pdogg]

everyone wants more money now and not content to be poor. There is a deep cultural change happening over the last few years and it will continue as the masses start to realise they are being trashed on continually by the people with the money.

Great post Mardhi and great thread Coxy!

I agree, the Redshirt movement is evidence of a deep cultural shift. The people are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Why be exploited by the Bangkok elite?

It may be useful to model the world's countries into three groups.

1) the Western democracies.

Enough money trickles down to keep everyone more or less happy. There is opportunity for all despite social class. Both Bill Clinton and Obama were raised by single moms of mod est means. I came from a lower middle class background but could easily be a millionaire today had I not been a slacker. The opportunity is there.

2) emerging democracies such as Thailand. I think (I really don't know, just theorizing) that it is not easy for someone with a lower class background to break out. Connections are vital.

3) brutal dictatorships where dissent gets you killed such as in many African countries.

In group 3 it's very dangerous to disent. But in Thailand, the consequences are minimal. The poor want a bigger piece of the pie.

Even in group 1 the people are getting angry , look at the Occupy Wall Street movement.

It is clear that globalization, is giving the the second group a bigger slice of the pie. This is an accelerating trend. Hence to maintain the current standard of living in group 1, it's imperitive that the pie itself gets bigger. There is some evidence of this, for example, breakthroughs in both mediicine and technology.

[Tomcat]

Tomcat, I won't swallow that one about all of us being corrupt or potentially so. That to me smacks of that old Nazi defence, of anyone would have done the same in the circumstances. I don't see evidence for that, and I think it's a weak argument, even if it gets into New Scientist disguised as reputable findings.

/quote]

You dont have to swallow it but its true. Just looking around the MPS in the UK Parliment will show that anyone can be corrupted and its not hard. New Scientist just published the results of several peer reviewed studies that included exaustive social experiments in which Vicars and University Professors would fiddle given the chance. Civilization is a very thin veneer

Also i think that most punters are self deluded and really think they are handsome man and that honey loves them very much. I suppose it helps us get through life eh

[beijo]

Slow down, its not law yet. Lets wait and see if the red shirts can pull that one off and lets see how the lady PM stays clean of this mess, and why so secret if they are sure it will succeed.

[SiamSam]

I agree however my close Thai friends are telling me we are going to have another horrid YELLOW SHIRT spring upheaval. This is the inside prediction.

[deepthroat]

It's getting harder and harder to keep haji down on the farm now that he/she's seen Gay Paris on the new media.

It used to be that the poor could be easily exploited because they didn't know better and weren't really aware of the opportunities they were missing, and it was easy to keep them in the dark via substandard educational opportunities. But with the omnipresence of western media via television and films and now digital communications, the younger generations know exactly what they are missing, even if they don't have an education. They may not be able to spell it, but they sure know what it is to own a pair of Levis, smoke Marlboros, drink pepsi, and drive a Chevy.

The elite can't put this genie back in the bottle.

[Tomcat]

when you eventually get an educated Elite that have no stake ,eg a future generation of world wise students , then the game is usually up and if the system dont change then the guillotine is usually wheeled out at some point. Especially in this day and age.

[mardhi]

mardhi I don't think wanting more money and not being content to be poor necessarily imply greed. That's a bit harsh. I don't know anyone who wants to be poor, but many who break out of poverty do it with morals intact. There's lots of greed about - agreed (pardon the terrible pun) - but it's mostly among the rich and the aspiring rich.

I quite admire good hard working honest folks who lift their lives and families out of poverty.

Just to clarify - I think your right and there are a huge amount of hard working people who are not corrupt and have their integrity intact. However what I am suggesting is that there are an increasing amount of people who assume wealth should be there's by right, rather than actually getting of their backside and earning it. That is the big change as the country moves from a single unit dwelling area to one where families are all over the place. However people are seeing it with their own eyes and its not foreigner related. Just look at Thai soap operas. they broadly split into two camps - the hi so wealthy Thai's driving around in flash cars and so on and the 'historical' movies featuring Thailand of old. The Hi so ones invariably portray, Greed, theft and so on - these movies are watched continually by run of the mill Thai's. They aspire to it. Some do it by creating wealth - others do it by other means.

The red shirt movement is an altogether different animal. Its a political arm, no more and no less. Its a means for taking and keeping power. The unfortunate thing is that the last government were so inept they could not see the writing on the wall and overcome what needed to be achieved to win these people over. One of the coalition partners at the time, was spot on - he said, no matter what, just dump load of money into infrastructure projects in Issan. Build new hospitals, new schools, new roads - show the majority that you do have their interests at heart. Unfortunately, it was not done and they lost the election. The political future of the country is controlled by the Issan vote. Takky knows it better than anyone and the Democrats still have failed to understand it. Win them over and you will win in every election.

I can see where this is heading and I do not think it will be good for anyone least of all the poorest in the country - they are being used as cannon fodder but they do not realise it. This is about power at the top not helping the poorest & weakest, other than to get their vote - which they get by building an infrastructure that promises much and delivers little other than a 500b note come voting time. That's why I say, the intent to keep the education system the way it is will not change soon despite the claims of the political parties.

[Tomcat]

The first three lines of your reply could as easy be Greece , Italy, Portugal or in fact the UK.

Money for nothing and chicks for free, and look where its gotten the EU Med states

[Luung]

@Coxy, Great thread... And great posting by everyone!.. Yes, in the main part we are deluded, vulnerable, vein & therefore gullible, but then so are the Thais also.

With regard to your friend's overview of a Thai perception towards us I don't find it any different to the views held by many in the England that I grew up in where everyone else was 'just another fucking foreigner' & we could blame all our problems on the immigrants too; but I must differ from Mardi's excellent post in that I don't think it's so much 'school' education issue, rather more a 'social' education issue, because I have heard this said before & by Thai's from all levels of their society, just the same has I did (and still do) in England, regardless of education or class. They're poxy views, but somewhat shared all the same

And with regard to 'Are we there to be taken advantage of'?.. Well in a perfect world we shouldn't be, but you've got to figure that most of these girls here weren't dealt a good hand in the first place (transsexuals are tolerated here, not accepted, there's a big difference) & in the absence of any kind of social welfare in a region where abject poverty, corruption, thievery, lies & vice are rife many will stoop to incredibly low levels by our standards figuring it's the norm. For instance, I've just had a the two pronged attack you mentioned on both my heart & wallet in Patts & eventually I skipped town without paying for a few things & when a good 'BM' friend of mine sought out the LB in question to pay her some money & put her in the picture as to why I bailed, he phoned me back to tell me that she had tears in her eyes, so like your friend she was aware that what she did was wrong & she was now consiquently feeling guilty.

Point is, she'd been treated well by a nice guy, but she still couldn't help herself... And why?.. Because of an ingrained prostitute psyche, peer pressure & a society that sees nothing wrong with cheating. Do I think she's a bad girl, No!.. Why, because there's a sweet heart buried under a pile of Soi 6 & other 'Thai' rubble & she's reading from a completely different rule book in the first place.

@ The rest of the congregation,

Other than that I go along with KenW, there are little oases of goodness & honesty in this country & in spite of what 'The New Scientist' might want to say; I personally feel that there is something innate within us that aspires for good & as primates for our immediate community to function well too, there has to be otherwise as opportunist monkeys we'd be eating our young. If we're all so corruptible I think more likely it's the nasty twists society can take that lead to fear more likely being responsible, I also think it's very much by degree & localised. Same as the Hound & many more of us I come from an extremely corrupt environment, but it's all by degree... And this is the main difference I see between many South East Asians, people from many other developing world countries & us. As for myself & most others I know back home, back handers, bank & insurance fraud, stuff that's termed 'honest crime' where I come from is acceptable, but you leave the likes of normal folk alone, taking advantage of the vulnerable, dumb & gullible just isn't on!.. There's the difference!

NB. (OK, I know enough of our lot will target the vulnerable too, but again, it's all by degree & there's a hell of a lot of difference).

If I thought for one moment that we were all so bad, cynical & corruptible as some might like to think, I'd have to put a fucking gun to my head, I just wouldn't want to be part of this world! My feelings are that the overly corrupted just feel a lot better if they can think we're all the same as them.

BTW, Taskin's already back... And he never really ever went!

Greed's the new black don't you know!... It's not 'monkey see, monkey do' anymore, it's 'monkey see, monkey want... Always been there & it transcends class in just the same way that ignorance does, it just gets worse with wider media access. You know, I used to get a really nice warm glow thinking that my little shag had just helped someone's poor invalid dad back home on the farm, now it just irks me a bit that I'm just contributing to the new Blackberry, iphone or scooter!!!

[Coxy277]

i think its all down to there mind set aswell as she once explained to me about ladyboys in thailand are ecepted but not really welcome with other thais

also she said we both the same then as westerners are welcome but not 100% ecepted so we must feel the same we all know that we are outsiders there but i didnt think that ladyboys felt they was aswell

on another note she does have some strange views she told me she has a swedish b/f and a american sponcer i as what difference was she said love b/f, she is tell me this why we are jumping into bed to some good old balox bashing ,durring this wile she was on top riding me she said i make love to you now i not fuck you i male love ( im thinking about time i got a freeby ) after we feel aslep i woke up went to make a coffe she got shower then dressed and call me saying i only take 1000bht from your pocket, confused i said i thought you say you make love to me she said i do if i fuck you as customer you pay 1500bht . on that i thougt said last week was only 1000bht i got back all price gone up now we make love IM WAS SO CONFUSED.

[Luung]

on another note she does have some strange views she told me she has a swedish b/f and a american sponcer i as what difference was she said love b/f, she is tell me this why we are jumping into bed to some good old balox bashing ,durring this wile she was on top riding me she said i make love to you now i not fuck you i male love ( im thinking about time i got a freeby ) after we feel aslep i woke up went to make a coffe she got shower then dressed and call me saying i only take 1000bht from your pocket, confused i said i thought you say you make love to me she said i do if i fuck you as customer you pay 1500bht . on that i thougt said last week was only 1000bht i got back all price gone up now we make love IM WAS SO CONFUSED.

From Aesops phables...

The Scorpion and the Frog

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the

scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The

frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion

says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,

the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of

paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,

but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

They can't help it mate!

[beijo]

For the Hound of B - I get my news from the Bangkok Post and local contact. Here is the latest for entertainment: Taksin says he will not take the Royal Pardon if given and tomorrow Monday Nov 21 the red shirts and yellow shirts will take to BKK streets again. In preparation the police has been mobilized and the military has promoted and shuffeled command to make sure there is sufficient loyalty in case needed. Sounds familiar does it not?

[beijo]

Here the latest as of Nov 21 BKK time - Public polls were against it and Thaksin himself wrote a letter promising not to accept a pardon even if he got one - so the government has dropped its plan to include ex-prime ministers in exile in the draft of a royal decree. This as per BKK post and if correct should cool heads in modays protest marches of the yellow shirts and support marches of the red shirts.

[Luung]

Here the latest as of Nov 21 BKK time - Public polls were against it and Thaksin himself wrote a letter promising not to accept a pardon even if he got one - so the government has dropped its plan to include ex-prime ministers in exile in the draft of a royal decree. This as per BKK post and if correct should cool heads in Mondays protest marches of the yellow shirts and support marches of the red shirts.

This is Taskin's biggest climb down yet! :lol:

I still just can't get over the utterly shameless Gall of the man & the completely insensitive inappropriateness of the timing of this request in the first place (denials or otherwise)! Anyway, the Yellow shirts have just cancelled their march for today, apparently there is going to be a quote: 'symbolic activity at Baan Phra Arthit at 10am'!? Whatever that means?

If you want a chuckle Beijo go & have a peek at the Youtube clip I've just posted on the 'Bangkok flood thread', it's quite apt considering the bastards made sure the residents suffered while the commerce area of the city stayed dry!

[Tomcat]

seeing the business sector based in BKK is around 40% of GDP its no wonder that sacrifices had to be made to stop the inner BK flooding

. Tough decisions yes but any Govt would have done the same if this were say London or Amsterdam or New York say. No doubt about it

[DownLoLarry]

With regard to your friend's overview of a Thai perception towards us I don't find it any different to the views held by many in the England that I grew up in where everyone else was 'just another fucking foreigner' & we could blame all our problems on the immigrants too

Lots of meaty subtexts in this thread prob worthy of a few distinct threads.

Agree with Lung is that it's quite natural To adopt a us vs them attitude and hate the foreigner be it the immigrant who uses social services or the fat, smelly, old Farang with socks and sandals who shags the locals for 500 baht.