Godspeed Glen Campbell

[Hefe]

Always much hipper than his "Aw shucks" country boy image would presume, Glen announced this week that he has Alzheimers.... being a true artist & fighter he is starting down this path by doing a "farewell tour" later this year. Perhaps this explains some of his extravagant behavior in recent years.

Starting out as a kid with The Champs, remember "Tequila"? & being a L.A. session musician (The Wrecking Crew) for folks like Phil Spector & countless bands, touring with the Beach Boys. Even as a young & dumb rock & roller I knew there was something special about a guy who had 3 killer but smart ballads: "Gentle on my mind", "By the time I get to Phoenix" & "Witchita Lineman" & so many more. He could hold his own with any guitarist onstage & he's charted 81 times!

[Lefty]

Lets hope it helps him forget that terrible acting in True Grit.

ps matt damon even worse.

I totally disagree with your assessment of both. I enjoyed Campbell's role and acting in True Grit. Thought he interacted well with the Duke. Wayne personally requested Campbell to be his co star.

Matt Damon was even better in the same role, as far as I'm concerned. I thought Damon nailed the role as well as anyone could have. One of the most talented contemporary actors IMO.

Of course I'm just a fan, a movie buff. I'm not someone educated to be a movie and acting critic who could pick up subtle nuances indicating less than cutting edge quality acting.

[Lefty]

Lefty's two favorite Glen Campbell songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHUgpSxMoI&feature=related

[Hefe]

made a wooden indian look eloquent, maybe John Wayne wanted him as a co star to make himself look even better.

Hah! I had a good laugh with that!

[Lefty]

Rhinestone Cowboy remix with Rikki & Daz was best , video is top with all the dancing cowgirls, but as an actor dont think so, made a wooden indian look eloquent, maybe John Wayne wanted him as a co star to make himself look even better.

That is nonsense IMO. John Wayne did not need anyone to make him look better. He was one of the top movie icons ever, like him or not. In True Grit, Campbell did just fine and to say he made a wooden Indian look eloquent would lead me to wonder if one ever watched the movie, or watched it sober. I've seen the original True Grit about 50 times since 1969, and never get tired of Glen Campbell's role.

As for a Rhinestone Cowboy remix, I usually hate any remix, so doubt I'd like it. PDogg and I talk about another popular remix a lot. Scott McKenzie's song, San Francisco. He likes the remix and I HATE it. Another remix I despise to the nth degree is the one for Living Next Door To Alice, where some dickwad inserts the line "who the fuck is Alice?" Then ya get a bunch of drunks in a bar where they play it, all shouting that line along with the "song". Just makes me grit my teeth.

Ok, I do try to be fair and objective in my opinions, so I searched for the remix on youtube. I didn't like it at all. Just made me cringe. Dancing cowgirls, well whoopee. We can see them in dozens of places. I can't believe they got Glen to do it. Money talks doesn't it? Makes me wonder if the early stages of the Alzheimer's was already setting in and effecting his judgement. Seriously.

IMO, people that remix songs do it because thy are not able to write original high quality songs of their own. Just turning classics into disco or rap crap.

[KenW]

There are many groups like The Beatles that I still cant see what the fuss was all about, always thought the music was pretty basic and grossly overated.

I know many Americans believe the legend of John Wayne but please

Marion Mason (aka John Wayne) was a racist redneck misogynist homophobe.

Whether he ever made a good movie is not for me to judge.

I'll just say I couldn't stand him.

Each to their own I suppose.

Hound you are only the second person (after me) I have ever heard say this about the hallowed Beatles.

I have been arguing for years they were the most overrated band that ever made the charts.

[Lefty]

Marion Mason (aka John Wayne) was a racist redneck misogynist homophobe.

Whether he ever made a good movie is not for me to judge.

I'll just say I couldn't stand him.

Each to their own I suppose.

Hound you are only the second person (after me) I have ever heard say this about the hallowed Beatles.

I have been arguing for years they were the most overrated band that ever made the charts.

His real name was Marion Morrison, not Mason, so I guess you don't know as much about him as you think you do. Racist? All 3 of his wives were Latina. An actual racist wouldn't marry outside race would he? Misogynist? He was married pretty much steady from 1933 to 1979. Would a real misogynist be continually married to women for 45 years? Do you have any legit proof he was a homophobe? One or two examples of homophobic behavior? Do you have any proof of any of your denigrating remarks?

I find it interesting that Joseph Stalin ordered Wayne's assassination, due to his strong anti-communist politics. but Stalin died before it could be carried out, after which Khrushchev personally rescinded the order. Wayne, being a John Bircher, was a staunch anti communist.

Wayne was pretty conservative later in life, but in the 1930s he voted for FDR.

The racist presidential candidate George Wallace, asked Wayne to be his running mate in 1968, an idea which Wayne quickly and strongly rejected.

I don't agree with all his politics or his strong pro Vietnam War stance, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy his movies, which I usually did. True Grit and Rio Bravo being my favorites.

[Lefty]

Christ sake Lefty why dont you lighten up a bit,how can anyone not like dancing cowgirls, not everyone is of the same generation as you and some of these remixes can bring popularity to a fading star from a new audience with a different taste. As for Living next door to Alice which was pretty shit to start with, the " who the fuck is Alice" was added by various comedians like Chubby Brown and Kevin "bloody Wilson".

The remix of San Francisco is another example of spicing up a pretty aged song and gets various types of music over to another generation, I am sure the original artists and performers were very pleased to accept the royaltys. There are many groups like The Beatles that I still cant see what the fuss was all about, always thought the music was pretty basic and grossly overated.

I know many Americans believe the legend of John Wayne but please have a look at a biopic of his life, he was far from the hero that you all like to believe that aside he did make some great movies in his prime.

If by lightening up means personally liking those club music type remixes, sorry it ain't gonna happen. I don't begrudge anyone else liking them however. There is no accounting for taste, be it clothes, music, cars, guns, girls, whatever. Yes I am sure the original artists do enjoy the royalties. They should get something for having others butcher their songs. 55555. When they remix songs, other than lyrics, it isn't really like the same song to me anyway. I personally always enjoy the originals of about any song. Me and PDogg were talking about another song, a cover, not a remix, and he likes the cover by Ike and Tina Turner, or Tina alone, better, and I cringe at the thought. Personal preference that's all it is. I forget the song at the moment...oh yeah, Proud Mary by CCR.

As for John Wayne, I don't think many of we Americans considered him some kind of hero. He was just a movie legend, who made many movies well enjoyed by generations. That's all.

[williethepimp]

His real name was Marion Morrison, not Mason, so I guess you don't know as much about him as you think you do. Racist? All 3 of his wives were Latina. An actual racist wouldn't marry outside race would he? Misogynist? He was married pretty much steady from 1933 to 1979. Would a real misogynist be continually married to women for 45 years? Do you have any legit proof he was a homophobe? One or two examples of homophobic behavior? Do you have any proof of any of your denigrating remarks?

I find it interesting that Joseph Stalin ordered Wayne's assassination, due to his strong anti-communist politics. but Stalin died before it could be carried out, after which Khrushchev personally rescinded the order. Wayne, being a John Bircher, was a staunch anti communist.

Wayne was pretty conservative later in life, but in the 1930s he voted for FDR.

The racist presidential candidate George Wallace, asked Wayne to be his running mate in 1968, an idea which Wayne quickly and strongly rejected.

I don't agree with all his politics or his strong pro Vietnam War stance, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy his movies, which I usually did. True Grit and Rio Bravo being my favorites.

very interesting Lefty......and you've educated me also.My favourite JW film is The Quiet man........(naturally)....last year I worked with an old Englishman who was in The Quiet Man Apreciation Society....he knew every word of dialogue in the film,and took tours around Mayo in Ireland with other members,to check out the locations used in the movie.

I admire dedication like that-55555.......I think only the Big Lebowski fascinates me as much as a film.

The Beatles?Their music will live forever-Lennon was a genius.....I'd hate to see any of their stuff "remixed"

GlennCampell?-Gentle on my mind is a great song-kudos to him for that......incidentally.....we always used to sing "nine stone cowboy" when it came on the jukebox.....not very original,but me and my mates hadn't a clue what a rhinestone was.

[Lefty]

very interesting Lefty......and you've educated me also.My favourite JW film is The Quiet man........(naturally)....last year I worked with an old Englishman who was in The Quiet Man Apreciation Society....he knew every word of dialogue in the film,and took tours around Mayo in Ireland with other members,to check out the locations used in the movie.

I admire dedication like that-55555.......I think only the Big Lebowski fascinates me as much as a film.

The Beatles?Their music will live forever-Lennon was a genius.....I'd hate to see any of their stuff "remixed"

GlennCampell?-Gentle on my mind is a great song-kudos to him for that......incidentally.....we always used to sing "nine stone cowboy" when it came on the jukebox.....not very original,but me and my mates hadn't a clue what a rhinestone was.

Gentle on my Mind, we can actually thank John Hartford for. He wrote it and did it first. The song won two 1968 Grammy Awards. Hartford himself won the award for Best Folk Performance. The other award, Best Country & Western Solo Vocal Performance, Male, went to Glen Campbell for his version of Hartford's song.

It has been covered by more artists than about any song, and IMO there are several very good versions, including Dean Martin and Lucinda Williams.

Nine Stone Cowboy, 555, that's funny man. A nine stone cowboy would be kind of a small one, right? Is it 15 lbs = one stone?

I've not seen The Quiet Man for years. Maybe I'll torrent it, since you got me thinking about it. Another non cowboy or war movie of his I liked was Donovan's Reef. I think I'll try to find it too.

[Lefty]

Talking about changing words Billy Connelly made a cover version called a " half stoned cowboy" I think the 1st line was " Like a half stoned cowboy who fell on his arse in the middle of a rodeo" quite funny if you listen to the whole song.

Billy Connelly for you non Brits is a Scottish Comedian some time folk singer.

He did do a piss take of Peter Sarsteds Where did you go to my Lovely but his was called where did you go to my ugly, mentioning balaclavas and Barbed wire knickers.

Even more obscure a Northern Comedian Folk singer called Bob Williamson from Bolton made a cracking comedy version of Everlys Ebony Eyes called "Hollands Meat Pies"

Sorry to go off track a bit and say I did like the odd John Wayne film but he would have been more credible if he had gone to war instead of shouting about it, now a real hero and great movie star of yesteryear was Audie Murphy, he could actually do what he portrayed and didnt hide in movies for the duration.

Wayne was 34 when Pearl Harbor was bombed. Relatively few men of that age were drafted. He actually felt guilty for not joining anyway in later years.

Here is a more complete look at his draft status, so we can be accurate and not go from memory or rumors.

America's entry into World War II resulted in a deluge of support for the war effort from all sectors of society, and Hollywood was no exception. Many established stars rushed to sign up for military service.

As the majority of male leads left Hollywood to serve overseas, John Wayne saw his just-blossoming stardom at risk. Despite enormous pressure from his inner circle of friends, he put off enlisting. Wayne was exempted from service due to his age (34 at the time of Pearl Harbor) and family status, classified as 3-A (family deferment). Wayne's secretary recalled making inquiries of military officials on behalf of his interest in enlisting, "but he never really followed up on them." He repeatedly wrote to John Ford, asking to be placed in Ford's military unit, but consistently postponed it until "after he finished one more film." Republic Studios was emphatically resistant to losing Wayne, especially after the loss of Gene Autry to the Army.

Correspondence between Wayne and Herbert J. Yates (the head of Republic) indicates Yates threatened Wayne with a lawsuit if he walked away from his contract, though the likelihood of a studio suing its biggest star for going to war was minute. Whether or not the threat was real, Wayne did not test it. Selective Service records indicate he did not attempt to prevent his reclassification as 1-A (draft eligible), but apparently Republic Pictures intervened directly, requesting his further deferment. In May, 1944, Wayne was reclassified as 1-A (draft eligible), but the studio obtained another 2-A deferment (for "support of national health, safety, or interest"). He remained 2-A until the war's end. Thus, John Wayne did not illegally "dodge" the draft, but he never took direct positive action toward enlistment.

Wayne was in the South Pacific theater of the war for three months in 1943–44, touring U.S. bases and hospitals, as well as doing some work for OSS commander William J. "Wild Bill" Donovan, who "hoped that a celebrity like Wayne could provide information denied his own operatives. Donovan was particularly interested in Wayne's assessment of MacArthur himself. Wayne's mission was only partly successful. He never met MacArthur, and although he filed a report with Donovan when he got back to the States, he had nothing substantial to offer Donovan." Donovan gave him a plaque and commendation for serving with the OSS, but Wayne dismissed it as meaningless.

The foregoing facts influenced the direction of Wayne's later life. By many accounts, Wayne's failure to serve in the military during World War II was the most painful experience of his life. Some other stars, for various reasons, did not enlist, but Wayne, by virtue of becoming a celluloid war hero in several patriotic war films, as well as an outspoken supporter of conservative political causes and the Vietnam War, became the focus of particular disdain from both himself and certain portions of the public, particularly in later years. While some hold Wayne in contempt for the paradox between his early actions and his later attitudes, his widow suggests Wayne's rampant patriotism in later decades sprang not from hypocrisy but from guilt. Pilar Wayne wrote, "He would become a 'superpatriot' for the rest of his life trying to atone for staying home."

[KenW]

His real name was Marion Morrison, not Mason, so I guess you don't know as much about him as you think you do. Racist? All 3 of his wives were Latina. An actual racist wouldn't marry outside race would he? Misogynist? He was married pretty much steady from 1933 to 1979. Would a real misogynist be continually married to women for 45 years? Do you have any legit proof he was a homophobe? One or two examples of homophobic behavior? Do you have any proof of any of your denigrating remarks?

I find it interesting that Joseph Stalin ordered Wayne's assassination, due to his strong anti-communist politics. but Stalin died before it could be carried out, after which Khrushchev personally rescinded the order. Wayne, being a John Bircher, was a staunch anti communist.

Wayne was pretty conservative later in life, but in the 1930s he voted for FDR.

The racist presidential candidate George Wallace, asked Wayne to be his running mate in 1968, an idea which Wayne quickly and strongly rejected.

I don't agree with all his politics or his strong pro Vietnam War stance, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy his movies, which I usually did. True Grit and Rio Bravo being my favorites.

Ah Lofty, no shit Sherlock. Go to the top of the class. I have never thought nor never said I knew much about him. I didn't even know his name. I'd plead guilty but ask that with mitigating circumstances of 6 decades of memory decay I be allowed to forget one name here and there. Look 3 lines above: I even forget yours.

I happen to have met so many Corkies down the years married to Indigenous Australians, Thais, VNese, Filipinas, etc., who are the biggest racists I ever encountered. Who you're married to don't count for shit other than maybe things like what turns you on.

Same goes for misogynists. A large fraction of the blokes I know who have been married long time are women haters of all shapes and sizes. I think your reasoning is totally screwed up linking these things together like you try to do.

On racism, he went on record with claims like he saw no wrong in the whites taking America from the Indians. In an interview about blacks he said he believed in white supremacy. In both full comments he went on to sweeten the bad taste with gooey phrases meant to water down his other ones, but all skilled redneck politicians do that.

You've got me on homophobe. The sources of those barroom quotes about faggots and cocksuckers now elude me after all these decades of blur. Or perhaps I heard wrong back then. Maybe my informers were talking about Frank Sinatra. I've never really been good with names. But then Righty, you pointed that out didn't you?

Of course you're allowed to enjoy his movies, as most do. I just don't, that's all.

And before you open a fresh post to call me a smart arse, I am aren't I?

[williethepimp]

Being 34 has nothing to do with nothing ,a real man would have volunteered, 1 of my Great Uncles was 35 when he volunteered in 1939 and his brother 32 when he was called up in 1941, neither needed to go as both were in reserved occupations working in the coal mines, both waived the exemption much to their own cost ,the older one died lost at sea in 1942 and the younger one spent 2 years in Japanese Prisoner of War camps ,12months of that on the Death Railway in Thailand, you can probably see why I dont have a lot of time for Hollywood heroes.

Correct me if I am wrong volunteers were excepted in the US Forces I believe.

I wont comment on the man being a bigot or misogynist as it would be a bit like the kettle calling the pan.

Actions speak louder than make believe,its easy to be shot at with blanks then go home for your tea every day.

Interesting post HOTB....in hindsight everything is 50-50 vision.....we now know that was a Just war,and volunteering would have been the right thing to do.My father volunteered from the mines also....but much younger, 22.I think if John Wayne had volunteered,he would have just been given the uniform,and paraded around as a morale booster for the troops.I'm sure he would have been kept away from the action(as Prince Andrew was in the Falklands war,ie,a long way away)

I don't think there are any Just wars anymore.....remember that dipstick American hot shot gridiron player who volunteered for Iraq...then got shot by friendlY fire a few weeks later....for what?.......to steal the oil from the Iraqis and increase tenfold Haliburton profits?

I wouldn't condemn JW for not volunteering,but it obviously played on his mind the rest of his life,who knows what his "advisors/agents" told him to do,or what threats were made against him should he volunteer,maybe "you'll never work in this town again"

Didnt Audie Murphy fight in the Korean war?Or was that a film I saw?

[Lefty]

Being 34 has nothing to do with nothing ,a real man would have volunteered, 1 of my Great Uncles was 35 when he volunteered in 1939 and his brother 32 when he was called up in 1941, neither needed to go as both were in reserved occupations working in the coal mines, both waived the exemption much to their own cost ,the older one died lost at sea in 1942 and the younger one spent 2 years in Japanese Prisoner of War camps ,12months of that on the Death Railway in Thailand, you can probably see why I dont have a lot of time for Hollywood heroes.

Correct me if I am wrong volunteers were excepted in the US Forces I believe.

I wont comment on the man being a bigot or misogynist as it would be a bit like the kettle calling the pan.

Actions speak louder than make believe,its easy to be shot at with blanks then go home for your tea every day.

That is total bullcrap. Any man who did not volunteer wasn't a real man? I knew a lot of old loggers when I was growing up who didn't go and I'd love for anyone to have told them they weren't real men. My dad was a logger, got drafted at 32, could have got out of it because loggers had an exemption too or so I was told, but went anyway. His twin brother and younger brother neither one got drafted and did not volunteer, but working as loggers in those days took men every bit as tough and fearless as it took to be in the military. While my dad was fighting the fucking heathen Japs in the Philippines, his younger brother got killed in a logging accident. Don't talk to me about what real men would or would not do. I never heard my dad ever speak negatively about anyone who did not volunteer.

[Hefe]

I guess I never really thought that Wayne was much of an actor until I saw "Red River" & "The Searchers" (still one of my favorite films), those changed my mind. He acquitted himself nicely & both are really terrific films. He was actually a "character actor" who caught on in a big way, he was never going to do Shakespeare, but neither is DeNiro, so what?

I guess he really does embody a lot of particularly "American" qualities.... for good & for ill. I don't think he was racist at all, let us know what he said that would contradict that. I believe his attitude towards the American Indians was a war was fought & they lost, simple. Probably simplistic too, but not wrong, more fatalistic than moral. But none of this would affect my enjoying his films anymore than what Jane Fonda did in North Vietnam would keep me from enjoying her movies either. Lets face it, actors aren't terribly bright for the most part, they just have other creative qualities.

[Lefty]

Ah Lofty, no shit Sherlock. Go to the top of the class. I have never thought nor never said I knew much about him. I didn't even know his name. I'd plead guilty but ask that with mitigating circumstances of 6 decades of memory decay I be allowed to forget one name here and there. Look 3 lines above: I even forget yours.

I happen to have met so many Corkies down the years married to Indigenous Australians, Thais, VNese, Filipinas, etc., who are the biggest racists I ever encountered. Who you're married to don't count for shit other than maybe things like what turns you on.

Same goes for misogynists. A large fraction of the blokes I know who have been married long time are women haters of all shapes and sizes. I think your reasoning is totally screwed up linking these things together like you try to do.

On racism, he went on record with claims like he saw no wrong in the whites taking America from the Indians. In an interview about blacks he said he believed in white supremacy. In both full comments he went on to sweeten the bad taste with gooey phrases meant to water down his other ones, but all skilled redneck politicians do that.

You've got me on homophobe. The sources of those barroom quotes about faggots and cocksuckers now elude me after all these decades of blur. Or perhaps I heard wrong back then. Maybe my informers were talking about Frank Sinatra. I've never really been good with names. But then Righty, you pointed that out didn't you?

Of course you're allowed to enjoy his movies, as most do. I just don't, that's all.

And before you open a fresh post to call me a smart arse, I am aren't I?

I don't give a shit how much of a smart ass you want to consider yourself. Call me Lofty or Righty or whatever, if it makes you feel like a bit of a randy bad ass. Just don't forget to call me the same thing in person. Then we can French kiss before I butt fuck you. Don't worry, I'll use lots of lube. ;)

But I digress...

Seriously folks,

I would like to know what your justification is for calling him a misogynist.

What did he ever do to indicate he hated women? Likely a lot stronger misogynists right here on this forum than Wayne ever was. He was married to Pilar the longest, till his death, and I've never heard anything from her that indicated she felt that way.

His statements that you use to say he was a racist, you oversimplified what he said. What I read he said about the Indians, was basically the truth. It was inevitable what happened, so many white people immigrating to the USA and moving west they had to go somewhere, and any wrongs committed by whites in those days are not the fault of white people today and we should not be made to pay for it or be riddled by guilt about it. I'd agree with that. He said in regards to white supremacy that until blacks caught up education wise that whites should remain in most govt positions, i.e. run things. That does seem like an ignorant thing to say. But, I'm not going to hold one statement against him, because I do not know how he treated blacks in person, which would be the main consideration in calling racist IMO. He said that in 1971 btw, in I believe, an interview with Playboy. You said he watered down his statements like all skilled redneck politicians do, except you overlooked that he was not a politician and had no interest in it. He was exercising his right to express his own opinions like any other private citizen. Playboy asked the questions and he gave his honest opinions. I can't fault him for that.

Like I said before, I don't agree with him on his political views, but that doesn't mean I can't like his movies. Are we to do background checks on every actor, athlete or musician to see if we agree with them, before liking them in their chosen field of entertainment?

As for the Corkies you encountered, I do not know what a Corky is. Would that be an Irish person from Cork? Are they the only white men you have known, married outside their race, or the only ones still racist? I can't speak to their situations regardless. I just do not know how a man could be racially biased toward the race of his spouse. Maybe they are selective racists? Racist against blacks or Arabs, but not against their spouse's race? I don't see how Wayne could be called racist toward Latins, having been married to 3, but MAYBE he was against blacks, or whomever. So maybe you got me there. Like I said, I do not know how he treated blacks et al in person, which to me would define how racist a man was more than anything else.

[KenW]

I don't give a shit how much of a smart ass you want to consider yourself. Call me Lofty or Righty or whatever, if it makes you feel like a bit of a randy bad ass. Just don't forget to call me the same thing in person. Then we can French kiss before I butt fuck you.

Well we might be left sighing at your ability to reason, but at least it's nice to see you're a tolerant soul who can take a bit of a joke and a tease.

[Luung]

Being 34 has nothing to do with nothing ,a real man would have volunteered, 1 of my Great Uncles was 35 when he volunteered in 1939 and his brother 32 when he was called up in 1941, neither needed to go as both were in reserved occupations working in the coal mines, both waived the exemption much to their own cost ,the older one died lost at sea in 1942 and the younger one spent 2 years in Japanese Prisoner of War camps ,12months of that on the Death Railway in Thailand, you can probably see why I don't have a lot of time for Hollywood heroes. Correct me if I am wrong volunteers were excepted in the US Forces I believe.I wont comment on the man being a bigot or misogynist as it would be a bit like the kettle calling the pan.Actions speak louder than make believe,its easy to be shot at with blanks then go home for your tea every day.

With you all the way on this one Hound!.. I've already mentioned in the 'Passion' thread that there was nothing more galling for my dad & me than watching John Wayne on the telly, winning the war for Amerika in conflicts that the yanks weren't even in!

My dad & my granddad were both in the WW2, granddaddy in North Africa & my dad went in as a volunteer 'boy soldier' at the end of the war... He eventually came out as a marksman in the royal Engineers & he actually even ended up at the Nuremberg trials as a guardsman (all guards had to be marksmen, BTW). It was always said to be a totally American affair, but it wasn't & I was vindicated from the people who dismissed my story when the information became 'public domain' at the end 60yr restriction on war disclosures.

That is total bullcrap. Any man who did not volunteer wasn't a real man? I knew a lot of old loggers when I was growing up who didn't go and I'd love for anyone to have told them they weren't real men. My dad was a logger, got drafted at 32, could have got out of it because loggers had an exemption too or so I was told, but went anyway. His twin brother and younger brother neither one got drafted and did not volunteer, but working as loggers in those days took men every bit as tough and fearless as it took to be in the military. While my dad was fighting the fucking heathen Japs in the Philippines, his younger brother got killed in a logging accident. Don't talk to me about what real men would or would not do. I never heard my dad ever speak negatively about anyone who did not volunteer.

Lefty, I think you've got to look at the situation like this a little bit differently when a war has actually been brought into your homes, has it especially was in communities like my family's where such a huge percentage of their people had been killed (civilians & soldiers alike) & so many had been bombed out of their homes too, mine included, they had to live on a house boat after the war.

Has I just mentioned, my father volunteered as a kid... you were shunned if you didn't under those circumstances.

I think the context of the situation as well as proximity is so very important in this type of discussion. :)

[Lefty]

With you all the way on this one Hound!.. I've already mentioned in the 'Passion' thread that there was nothing more galling for my dad & me than watching John Wayne on the telly, winning the war for Amerika in conflicts that the yanks weren't even in!

My dad & my granddad were both in the WW2, granddaddy in North Africa & my dad went in as a volunteer 'boy soldier' at the end of the war... He eventually came out as a marksman in the royal Engineers & he actually even ended up at the Nuremberg trials as a guardsman (all guards had to be marksmen, BTW). It was always said to be a totally American affair, but it wasn't & I was vindicated from the people who dismissed my story when the information became 'public domain' at the end 60yr restriction on war disclosures.

Lefty, I think you've got to look at the situation like this a little bit differently when a war has actually been brought into your homes, has it especially was in communities like my family's where such a huge percentage of their people had been killed (civilians & soldiers alike) & so many had been bombed out of their homes too, mine included, they had to live on a house boat after the war.

Has I just mentioned, my father volunteered as a kid... you were shunned if you didn't under those circumstances.

I think the context of the situation as well as proximity is so very important in this type of discussion. :)

I can understand the perspective would be different for British citizens than for many Americans, since the war was being delivered to you on a daily basis for the many months that the Krauts bombed Britain. Luckily, their formidable military was under the final control of a man who knew no more about military strategy than the local shoeshine boy, and Adolf called off the focus on Britain to invade Russia. What a fucking stroke of genius that was.

As for JW winning the war in movies, he was far from alone, so why single out the disdain for just him? Errol Flynn did some too. I read the Brits were very upset because his movie Objective Burma made it look like the Americans won the war in that theater of operations all by themselves. Wayne and Flynn made American movies so of course the focus is going to have that point of view. If the Brits wanted to show WWII from their perspective then better to make such movies themselves.

Which specific Wayne movies showed us winning in conflicts we were not in?

[Lefty]

Lung,

I just scrolled through all of John Wayne's WWII movies, and cannot spot a single one showing the Americans winning in a conflict we weren't really in. Maybe I am missing some? Please tell me if I am. Here are the ones I came up with:

Flying Tigers 1942. American mercenary pilots did make up the actual Flying Tigers, so that wouldn't be one.

The Fighting Seabees 1944. That's about US Navy Seabees in the Pacific. We were there.

Back to Bataan 1945. The PI was all Filipinos and Americans vs Japs. So that would not fit.

They Were Expendable 1945. American PT Boats in the defense of the Philippines in World War II. Not that one then.

Sands of Iwo Jima 1949. No explanation necessary there.

Operation Pacific 1951. About a US Sub cammander in the Pacific. Not that one.

The Sea Chase 1955. Wayne plays the Capt of a German freighter. So obviously not winning the war for America in a conflict we were not part of.

The Wings of Eagles 1957. A biography of Navy flier-turned-screenwriter Frank W. "Spig" Wead. Doesn't fit either.

The Longest Day 1962. I kind of think we were part of that day.

In Harm's Way 1965. US Navy vs Japs. Not that one then.

As near as I can tell, that is every movie in which Wayne played that took place during WWII.

So can you tell me which movies you refer to?

[Jimslim]

I believe his attitude towards the American Indians was a war was fought & they lost, simple. Probably simplistic too, but not wrong, more fatalistic than moral.

Well actually it is wrong , very wrong .

It was their land they were the indigenous people , they fought back against the might of expanding US capitalism hardly a fair fight .

[Luung]

Adolf called off the focus on Britain to invade Russia. What a fucking stroke of genius that was.

As for JW winning the war in movies, he was far from alone, so why single out the disdain for just him? Errol Flynn did some too. I read the Brits were very upset because his movie Objective Burma made it look like the Americans won the war in that theater of operations all by themselves. Wayne and Flynn made American movies so of course the focus is going to have that point of view. If the Brits wanted to show WWII from their perspective then better to make such movies themselves. Which specific Wayne movies showed us winning in conflicts we were not in?

It wasn't just that Hitler was dumb enough to think he could fight a war on two fronts, especially when he knew all to well what happened to Napoleon's Army when they marched on Moscow! Unless you could have air dropped your men & lift them out again it was always going to be suicide man!!!.. But it was also because of the concerted & very much appreciated contribution of all the allies in the 'Battle of Britain' that Hitler realized he just wasn't going to win the war in the skies over England. In spite of the ME 109's superior spec we were virtually nailing them at a 2 to 1 ratio for much of that particular conflict, sometimes even more than that. Our best squadrons were actually manned by Pollacks & they produced some of our best aces... And at the time back then we loved them for helping to win the war for us (different story now)... Maybe because they didn't have the swagger & glitz of the Americans or Hollywood?

Lefty everyone is more than grateful enough for the contribution that the Americans made & no doubt without them we would all be talking German right now, but many of Brits despise Hollywood & in particular the likes of Wayne, big enough to fill a door, totally in control, bullet proof, swaggering & laconic, completely non-plused... The Brits just don't like that sort of star, Flynn was more their kind of hero, the vulnerable swashbuckler!

I personally don't like either of them, give me someone like Brando any day!.. And I've always found Wayne's acting wooden ,JMHO, which is one reason why I'm not an aficionado of his films, so I would find going through his complete catalog & doing an autopsy right now a real chore ... Sorry mate, but you'll just have to take my word for it that my olé' man was seething in dismay & disgust while the young Lung was sitting either next to him or on his lap & twisting the knife in too!

However, I'd love to carry on our WW2 conversations back on the 'Passions thread' & I'll pick back up on them when I've got a bit more time for forumland.

[Lefty]

Ok Lung, fair enough. My list of JW's WWII films is from going through his complete filmography on www.imdb.com very carefully. From 1940 till his death, those are the only WWII films he was in that I could find. He was doing westerns at a much higher rate.

As for Uncle Adolf and Russia, IMO, the fatal decision was invading Stalingrad, which was more of an ego thing rather than a city of military importance. The better move would have been totally focusing on the Caucasus oil fields if he had to invade at all. Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for Nazi Germany.

[Luung]

Ok Lung, fair enough. My list of JW's WWII films is from going through his complete filmography on www.imdb.com very carefully. From 1940 till his death, those are the only WWII films he was in that I could find. He was doing westerns at a much higher rate.

As for Uncle Adolf and Russia, IMO, the fatal decision was invading Stalingrad, which was more of an ego thing rather than a city of military importance. The better move would have been totally focusing on the Caucasus oil fields if he had to invade at all. Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for Nazi Germany.

OK, we're completely off topic here, but who gives a shit... Anyway, I completely agree with you, Stalingrad was sheer folly & if anything he should have gone directly for the Caucasus oil fields, he was starting to become starved of resourses... Destroy it or claim it, it's win, win!

[Lefty]

OK, we're completely off topic here, but who gives a shit... Anyway, I completely agree with you, Stalingrad was sheer folly & if anything he should have gone directly for the Caucasus oil fields, he was starting to become starved of resourses... Destroy it or claim it, it's win, win!

Adolf had recently signed a non aggression treaty with Stalin too, then he goes ahead and breaks it. He wasted his best army in his vain attempt to take Stalingrad. Lack of oil already was costing them in North Africa, so one would think the comparative ease in which they could have taken those oil fields...what a fool. Hitler didn't know or accept his limitations and would have been well served to let any number of his fine generals run the military.

If you want to see what is IMO the best movie depicting the Eastern Front in WWII, watch Cross of Iron. Easily a top ten overall WWII film for that matter, at least IMO. The opening credits of the movie is almost worth watching just by itself.

Recently watched too Enemy At The Gates. Got me to reading about Russian snipers. They had a good many superb snipers during the war, and many of them were women. We think we are being progressive in the USA these days with women in combat units, but the Russians were 60 some years ahead of us. Many of the women were not conscripts either, but volunteers.