4:17

Same with me; I see it on the right, above "Recent Topics."

I'm sure you'll think of something, JD. I think you should put pen to paper and write a memoir. If you need a ghost writer or editor, I'm your man. I've found my middle aged body is like the middle-aged Ford I drove in high school and college. I put a lot of miles on it for its age, but it ran pretty good -- if I took religiously good care of it. My old T-Bird, if I ran it ever day -- highway miles, preferably -- changed all the fluids and filters per the manual, put high-octane fuel in it and did all of the recommended preventative type maintenance, it ran to beat hell (usually -- even then, some random shit would break once in awhile, but then it was old). Let it sit in the driveway and slack off taking care of it -- it would almost immediately and invariably start to run like shit. Same same me. When my father died I put on a lot of weight, quit working out, riding my bike and whatnot, and I'm still working it off years later. Back in my 20s if I put on weight I could always lose it with little trouble -- used to piss off my girlfriends (having a girlfriend is usually when I would put on a few pounds, lol). When I went back to the States last year, I started eating like I'd never left -- my intestinal track let me know in no uncertain terms that this was no longer an option -- no more cheap, low-octane gasahol. Don't get me wrong; I'm not offering any advice or proselytizing here -- just sympathy. I think your health naturally affects your libido, so I can sympathize. The aforementioned time after my dad died, I lost all interest in sex. Part of that was mental, sure, but part of it was also physical, I think. It wasn't until I started working out a bit again, yoga and some light trail running/mountain biking, that I began to notice women again -- that's what worked for me, at least. I'm sure you'll get yourself sorted and find your mojo again ...

So now that you got all that fucking out of the way, now you can settle down to start writing novels or painting, yes? Back in college I came across a quote from a famous painter who, upon reflection on his life, wondered what else he could have accomplished -- beyond what he already had -- with his art, if not for his dick getting in the way. I don't remember who it was -- it may not have even been a painter; perhaps a writer, even, or a sculptor -- but at the time I reacted to it with a youthful "whatever, dude." Now that I shan't see 40 again, I'm beginning to suspect he was right. Nevertheless, having said that, we all know where I'm going and what (and who) I'm going to spend time doing the next time I have a few days off work (come the end of September). And again at the end of October.

Hmm, I guess there's something wrong with me (no surprise there ). As long as she's had a shower/used the bum hose/brushed her teeth, it's no problem/issue for me. I suppose if I wanted to have sex right at that moment, and she just had a short-time an hour before, I would probably beg off, shower/listerine not withstanding -- no one wants sloppy seconds (unless that's your particular kink). But beyond that, mai pen lai. She's a prostitute, after all; I'm sure she's had sex numerous times with all sorts of people I would find aesthetically displeasing. And it's a two way street -- as some of the girls demonstrate. But I suppose with them it's more of a professional interest/curiosity, who you've been fucking and what you get up to with her mates/competition. If anything I tend to be at the opposite end of the spectrum; I'm always curious to hear the details of a girl's sex life, be they P4P or not. I don't get off on it, but I suppose it's just a healthy, prurient curiosity. Humans are a pretty interesting lot, after all, and all the P4P girls have got some great stories regarding customers' kinks.

:rofl: ... I'm surely racking up some bad karma laughing at that, but damn that was funny. Good one R. 67. "Dog is my Co-Pilot."

Now now, nothing wrong with the white picket fence; it's just not for me. And I think many guys/gals who do want that fence perhaps go about it the wrong way -- or in an unenlightened way, shall we say -- and there are probably a few (maybe even a lot) who aren't fence sitters at all, but just haven't figured it out yet. Like I said in the other thread, you seem to have your eyes open and your wits about you and seem to know what you're on about, so I think you've got a fair shot at your own version of the white picket fence.

Same same me.

Danka, Sam. And you know, I forgot to mention -- in one respect I may surprise some people with my thinking, here -- but I'm much less cynical about people getting involved with working girls than most folks on this here board and others, as well as people I've bantered with in real life. Relationships aren't my thing, as established here and on BB's other thread, but it seems to me that the cultural and age differences are the big issues in these relationships, not merely the fact that she's a bar girl. Of course, as others have noted, if you don't want her to continue to work in the bar, you've either got to be here on the ground or willing to pony up your cash as well as your trust -- or so I would think. But then I'm not willing to put that to the test . Can't very well expect fidelity when I'm not willing to adhere to that myself. In fact, given a 20-something Thai girl who has lead a middle class or even hi-so life, vs. someone from rural Issan who has worked in a bar for several years -- provided they have the attitude/aptitude for that kind of life -- I imagine that in the long run there may be less issues with the bar girl who has graduated from the school of hard knocks; she's going to have different expectations than her well-to-do counterpart. But then I'm speaking generally; each person is, of course, different and a unique individual, regardless of what side of the planet they come from. And I'm admittedly biased, as I love my whores. (they do have hearts of gold, just often gilded in iron, heh). But then, I'm not looking to marry them -- or anyone else for that matter. P.S. and like Icerberg, I look forward to discussing this in real-time in Patts. ...

But then if you don't include the prefix dog's, then bollocks is the equivalent of bullshit, yes? As in "What the (insert reviled politician here) said was complete bollocks."

Got mah hoodoo workin'! Well, now, I suppose that's the $64,000 question, isn't it? By the way, I'm all out of +1's today, BB. Oh well, you've already reached cockstar status ... is there a reputation step beyond that? Super Deluxe Ultra Man Cockstar? Supreme Overlord Cockstar? How much rep does one need to achieve Cockstar status anyway? Anyway, I suppose like Tex says, part of it is defeated expectations -- the realization that white picket fences, a mortgage, spouse, 2.3 kids and a dog and the (often soul-crushing) job/career to support all that -- all of the usual things one expects to achieve in a first-world culture -- that none of that is what you want or is going to make you happy in the long run. The realization that no matter how hard you try, you can't choke down the red pill and stay in the Matrix, nor do you want to; a conventional life just won't do. From there you realize your path is going to be different -- or maybe you don't in so many words, but just instinctively set out on that Frost-laden road less traveled, giving the finger to the path of least resistance (damn, I am seriously mixing metaphors and pop culture references today), and figure it all out later. That is, if you're prone to thoughtful navel gazing (and I most certainly am). I'm sure most if not all of us have a friend or two back home who've told us "Shit, man, I wish I could do what you do. Just pick up and go. Have no worries or cares, do what the fuck you want. But I could never do that ... " blah blah blah because all the usual reasons, let me stop while I pop another blue pill. Do they lack true grit? I don't know. But among my better friends back home, when they come up with that line -- usually over a few beers -- I always like to respond: "You lack the courage of your convictions sir (or madam/mademoiselle, as the case may be). Do it." I can be a dick sometimes. What I often find more difficult to understand, however -- and what prompted my posts in the other thread -- are the folks that come abroad, particularly to a place like Thailand, to fulfill those expectations defeated at home. If you love transgendered women, that's one thing -- hey, who doesn't? -- but many people are still chasing the whole white-picket-fence dream on top of that, even though that chase has been making them unhappy for years back home. But to each his or her own. I'm not here to judge, just to try and understand. And I'm sure there are those individuals who are quite happy with a white-picket-fence lot in life -- just not with someone that was born with two XX chromosomes. We all have our own paths to travel.

Hey Randi, Thanks for taking the time to post that. +1 I guess I'll never completely understand the hunt for true love, so to speak, but I can understand where you're coming from now that you've spelled it out for me. It sounds like you've got your eyes (and your mind) open and are self-aware, so I think if anyone has a shot, you do. Heh, nope, never been married and most certainly no rugrats (do not want to even contemplate the responsibility that would entail). I used to think when I was younger that I wanted these things; after all that's normal. It's how I (and many others) was raised. It's what people do, and I had a string of serious relationships starting in college, a few live-in girlfriends, etc. With one of them we actually came within several months of getting married. Church and pastor booked, invitations mailed, reception booked -- the whole nine yards. *shudder* Confronted with the reality of it, I had to do some soul searching and some long, hard thinking, the end result of which was realizing that getting married -- not just to her, but to anyone -- and producing children were the absolute last things I wanted. Thus wedding called off; the ugliness that ensued only reinforced my feelings. That's been, oh, a decade and a half ago, and there have been a couple of serious relationships since then, although I was brutally honest with them and explained I'm not husband material: no interest in long-term serial monogamy nor in procreation; living together isn't even an option. Both times, in the end, the women confessed that they thought that I was either a) just another full of shit guy who just needed to be hooked and reeled in, or that they could change me -- tame the wild stallion, or some other such silly metaphor. At this point, unless a woman -- transgendered or otherwise -- came to me and said, "4, I love you and all that, but I'm not wifey material: I have no interest in a long-term serial monogamy nor in procreation; living together isn't even an option" -- there's the perfect woman -- I don't think I'd consider another relationship, not in a conventional, romantic sense of the term. So yeah, that's me, the weird globe-trotting, happily-single uncle showing up unannounced on siblings' doorsteps with odd souvenirs in hand for the brood of nieces and nephews.

Too late; reference above.

Cor blimey! What a cracking good idea for a thread!

Well, that won't do, good heavens, I could never do that! Thanks P.Dogg, et al, for all the good info. I'll have to check out Iluka when I'm there next; if it lives up to its photos, those are some great rates, particularly for low season.

That thread is gay. BWA HA HA HA HA HA! Sorry, I couldn't resist. And for those that need a cultural context/an update on modern vernacular, here is Wikipedia: In all seriousness, I'm surprised the "Am I Gay" -- or in this case, bisexual -- question hasn't popped up on Thai Visa before now with regard to ladyboys. As for the above use of the term gay, I agree with those who say that it is actually prejudicial against people that do identify as gay. On the other hand, that train has already left the station; such is the nature of language. Reclaiming it will take some time. As the wise SiamSam said, does the label really matter?

*dons flame-retardant suit* First, once again, excellent thread, BB. Second, let me emphasize, this isn't directed at anyone in particular, and I'm not trying to troll or otherwise get anyone upset/pick a fight -- just trying to understand. I confess I really don't understand the cynicism that so many people have regarding Thai girls/LBs and Thai culture -- and believe me, there are things that drive me absolute bat-shit crazy when it comes to Thai culture (of course there are things that bug the shit out of me about Western cultures, too). But then I suppose that's because I don't understand those looking for love in LoS. SiamSam made an elegant statement -- very well said sir; +1 -- and I'm curious as to how many of you here it describes: Does this describe you, forum reader? Because I have to say it doesn't describe me, and maybe that's where I'm at a loss. Again, don't get me wrong; I'm not arguing with Sam or saying he's wrong or anything -- just really curious and trying to understand why I'm always reading about drama and the ensuing cynicism *cough, cough -- LBP forum -- cough, cough* or hearing about it first hand here on the ground, either here in Viet Nam or back in Thailand. I'm not looking for depth or something more meaningful; it's not a goal. Personal connections aren't my raison d'etre. I suppose in terms of life goals, at the end of the day, I only have two: have as much fun as a I can before I die, and follow the Golden Rule as much as possible, both in terms of the people I encounter and the world at large. I'm not looking for love, and I guess that's why I find this whole thread -- and many others -- mystifying. I suppose if I find it, that would be great, but it's not a goal. It's not something I seek out, expect, or necessarily even want. I like to keep life simple. Give me some drama-free fun and excitement sprinkled with a bit of passion, and I'm content and happy; all is right with the world. So are most of you ultimately "seeking and holding dear what you do not have," to paraphrase Sam? Is that your personal raison d'etre, once you have food, warmth and shelter? Are you looking for more than just a good time?

Wow, excellent outdoor shots! Well played with the Canon 50D.

Cool, thanks Quietguy! Much obliged. Edit: just checked it out on Agoda for curiousity's sake. A studio room with king-size bed is 42$ USD, or about 1325 baht right now. Here's the description of the room: "The Studio in the Boutique Wing is 41 sq. m. and decorated in a traditional Thai style, and features a bedroom, a kitchen area, and a balcony. Amenities include air-conditioning, wireless Internet access, IDD telephone, flatscreen cable television, and a fully stocked mini bar." Sounds like a good deal. You know I've walked past that place last October; I'll have to reconnoiter it when I'm back next month ... Thanks again QG.

Is that (Limpid Pools of/Anime Eyes) Cream, ex So-What/ex (presumably) A Bar? The one who has a regular customer in Patts who pays her 4,000 baht just to smell her hair for an hour?

Owe? Really? O-w-e? What's her middle name? Me 1,000 Baht? *rimshot ... sound of crickets* Thank you ladies and germs. I'll be here all the week.

Interesting, Tomcat, I haven't been back to China/Taiwan or Japan since 2005; I'm not surprised things are changing and the old Confucian thinking may be fading somewhat/superceded by other ways of thinking. I think SE Asia is a little behind that curve, particularly here in Viet Nam, and in Cambo and Laos, I imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if Thailand is not far behind Taiwan and Japan though ... Sorry if I'm getting off topic. P.S. Ditto pretty much all of what Mardhi said.

Heh, that story was worth a +1. Ladyboys and the Tour de France don't mix either, but that's another story -- and not nearly as epic/entertaining as yours.

Yeah, thanks BB. That Long Tail Bar thread was one of the reasons I was thinking of staying in Jomtien. Ended up booking the PBR again though; tough to beat the combination of room, price and location. Bit OT, but where is Tip, she of the permanent titty hardons, working these days? And is Hot Legs still there? The lady that owns (owned?) the place is pretty cool (and cute!). And I would still appreciate hearing from anyone that has experience/the lowdown with digs down in Jomtien. Perhaps I'll take a day when I'm in Patts in September or October/November and do some scouting myself. ...

Interesting topic, BB, and interesting, thoughtful responses so far. I can certainly understand why the girls get jaded. To a lesser extent, I even understand the guys that get jaded and make (to my mind) often ridiculous and somewhat narrow-minded generalizations about Thai girls, working girls, culture, etc. (before anyone flames me, I'm not directing that at anyone in particular; in fact this board seems to get a minimum of that sort of thing, unlike, say LBP). For my part, I suppose I'm a true butterfly man. I don't understand these guys that come here looking for love and a long-term relationship, but then I don't really understand the folks back home pining away for that sort of thing. Not knocking it, it's just not for me (and no, I didn't come from a broken home; my parents were very loving towards each other, and us kids, and they were together for more than 50 years). So I'm always very honest with the girls, both in P4P and outside that scene. It's hard for people from Southeast Asian cultures to understand someone who doesn't want to ever get married, doesn't want to be in a LTR, etc., as it is so ingrained in their own culture -- it's a very alien way of thinking -- even in Western cultures. But I'm just much more happy and content living the simple life on my own (guess that's why I love working girls). Were I ever to get involved with someone seriously again (I tried to conform to the norm, once upon a time), she would have to be just as bad a butterfly as I am (and of course I would let her butterfly, because I'd be doing the same -- if you love something set it free. ). Needless to say I'm not a jealous person. ... But my (rather sanctimonious) point is, I rarely have any problems with women or LBs, be they P4P or not. Frankly I'm sometimes mystified when I see or hear about some drama that some board member experienced. I think as long as you are honest about what you are up to/what you want, whether you are talking to a prostitute, the cashier at 7-11 or the business woman you met across the conference table, there's not going to be any problems on either side. At least that's been my experience. On the other hand, guys stringing along girls on some dating site just to get some and then walk away -- being the playa -- that's a bit despicable, at best. That's my long-winded 0.63 baht.

Bit of topic, but had to chime in -- sorry JD -- but FM, you really think Die Another Day is worse than Moonraker? For my money that's always been the A1 stinker of the Bond franchise. Granted Die Another Day is pretty painful, though. But gotta love Halle Berry in just about anything. I loved Catwoman, just for the fact that it had her prancing around in faux bondage gear (beyond that it sucked ass, in a bad way). As for the Bourne movies, well, these are usually the kind of movies I like to bitch about, make fun of, poke holes in and generally climb up on my cultural elitist high horse. Having said that, and having been forced to actually sit through the first couple once by a friend of mine -- held my six-pack of Guinness hostage, that bastard -- I have to admit they weren't half bad; the first was actually rather good, even. P.S. As for the Ludlum books ... oh, don't get me started