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3 hours ago, stoolpusher said:

and STOP buying shit from China

  Sadly China has mostly cornered the market on rare earth minerals. If you don't know what that is you should do a web search and some reading. The US used to produce a lot but sold their biggest company to China long ago. There was some kind of effort going on to restart the industry in the US but China has us mostly by the balls. As they do with ingredients to make many medicines, etc.

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4 hours ago, xyzzy said:

  Sadly China has mostly cornered the market on rare earth minerals. If you don't know what that is you should do a web search and some reading.

I do know what rare earth minerals are , I learnt about that in school . Australia has sold Iron and LPG to China for many years and now China own a port in the Top End of Australia and it only permits Chinese owned ships to dock there , that should never of happened .

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13 hours ago, stoolpusher said:

I do know what rare earth minerals are , I learnt about that in school . Australia has sold Iron and LPG to China for many years and now China own a port in the Top End of Australia and it only permits Chinese owned ships to dock there , that should never of happened .

  Unfortunately there are a lot of things that should have never happened. But the rest of the world wanted cheap goods from China or needed their bad economies rescued. And now in many products, if push came to shove, China has almost complete control over the rest of the world. It would damage the fairly newly created "middle class" if China flexed their muscle. But China has drawn farther away from the capitalist path, and concern for their citizens, in recent years under Xi. Unless there is some SERIOUS international initiatives in the coming years little will change. And that might be wishful thinking.  

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2 hours ago, xyzzy said:

  Unfortunately there are a lot of things that should have never happened. But the rest of the world wanted cheap goods from China or needed their bad economies rescued. And now in many products, if push came to shove, China has almost complete control over the rest of the world. It would damage the fairly newly created "middle class" if China flexed their muscle. But China has drawn farther away from the capitalist path, and concern for their citizens, in recent years under Xi. Unless there is some SERIOUS international initiatives in the coming years little will change. And that might be wishful thinking.  

Ultimately it's the access to cheap goods that puts them in the position to continue to be fucking horrible arrogant pricks with no regard for human rights 

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4 hours ago, xyzzy said:

Unless there is some SERIOUS international initiatives in the coming years little will change. And that might be wishful thinking.

I know. I'm not too hopeful though. The future is conservative.

1 hour ago, globetrotter1 said:

Ultimately it's the access to cheap goods that puts them in the position to continue to be fucking horrible arrogant pricks with no regard for human rights 

Exactly. These people are probably the only ones more horny for money than thais. But its our own fault, we buy their shit made in sweat shops to keep the middle class happy.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

 

So the Wuhans are enjoying themselves while we are struggling with their virus:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/photos-wuhans-vibrant-nightlife-show-173453193.html

  • People in Wuhan, China, are out in the streets and partying without masks, which makes it look like life is basically back to normal in the city.

  • Wuhan, where the coronavirus is thought to have originated, lifted its lockdown seven months ago.

  • Partygoers are making the most of their freedom, according to a series of photos taken by Aly Song on December 12 and posted by Reuters

  • They are celebrating in large groups without masks, enjoying street food and playing with toy guns, late into the night.

  • "After experiencing the first wave of epidemic in Wuhan and then the liberation, I feel like I'm living a second life," 29-year-old Zhang Qiong told Reuters.

  • The city was under a 76-day lockdown from January 23 until April 8, and has not had a reported case of COVID-19 since May 10.

  • Meanwhile, other countries such as the UK, US, and Italyface stricter measures and further lockdowns as cases and infection rates soar. 

 

Yummy, batsoup.

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Bat leftovers.

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Some interesting points from the full article that is available to read from the link below.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9071191/Will-learn-truth-China-pandemic-writes-IAN-BIRRELL.html

The WHO has allowed China to vet scientists taking part in the probe, while also appointing to its ten-strong team the British charity chief Peter Daszak whose funding for research on bat viruses in a high-security Wuhan laboratory was stopped on safety grounds.

Although it is crucial to find the pandemic’s source in order to help protect against further eruptions, some experts fear that official investigations will sweep aside even the possibility that Sars-Cov-2 – the strain that causes Covid-19 – might be man-made.

Baric’s team carried out controversial research with the Wuhan Institute of Virology, creating chimeric viruses (new hybrid micro-organisms) to test the ability of bat-borne viruses to infect human cells. He has admitted they can be made without any signs of manipulation.

In the meantime, medical staff who responded to the first outbreak of Covid 19 in Wuhan have been warned they could be charged with espionage – which carries the death penalty – if they reveal details about the disease’s eruption in the city. (Almost every case in China’s courts ends with conviction.)

 

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I will probably get some push back on this, but its my opinion (I have an asshole too!)

I don't blame China for the coronavirus.  Malignant viruses develop all over the world, and many, many intellectuals had been telling us for years that another worldwide pandemic (I think HIV/AIDS was last official one) was coming down the pipeline.  So, in my opinion the blame for the destruction of western economies by the coronavirus should not be placed at their feet. We have plenty of ex-pats on this board, who may have grumbled about the heavy handed tactics of their host countries (Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, and Cuba for that matter), but those countries have done what mine (USA) has woefully failed to do - Save lives and restart their non-tourist based economies.

Personally, I recall reading the first article in January 2020, about China locking down Wuhan because of some virulent new disease.  My first thought was "Holy shit, this must be serious".  The reason I had this thought is I immediately recognized that the Chinese authorities had to have understood that they were sacrificing billions of Yuen in profits from all the businesses that they had to close to insure 14 million people were on lock down.  They also decided that they were going to have to dip into their treasury and feed, house, and provide medical care FOR AS LONG AS IT TOOK to stamp out the new virus.  Why no political leaders in the west saw it this way is mind boggling.  I also remember the incredulous news reports about the Chinese building field hospitals for thousands of people in a matter of weeks.  You don't build field hospitals in two weks unless you anticipate that thousands of people are going to need to be hospitalized. Some things are obvious. But, the obvious is what people in the west have consistently missed with respect to the coronavirus.

The Machiavellian fact is that the virus has rendered the western powers weak and destitute. The world is now easy pickings for the Chinese. The game is over folks.  I believe its wrong to say China started germ warfare, but the result is the same.  They are partying in China, not because they intentionally spread a virulent disease to the rest of the world, but because they were smart enough to recognize the danger and do what was necessary to stop it.

My final personal opinion is this:  the reason our political leadership in the west did not do what was necessary to stop the virus is because all the western powers are pawns of the same capitalist 1% who shipped all the jobs to China, and to stop the virus costs money, since you have to initially lockdown the economy for for 2 or 3 months, and pay everyone to stay home.  The chinese leaders were willing to pay everyone to stay home, the 1% in the west were not, and still are not in the US.  

But it is always easier to blame some foreign peoples for your own countries failings, and I expect most here will continue to do so.

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1 hour ago, RandiUno2 said:

I will probably get some push back on this, but its my opinion (I have an asshole too!)

I don't blame China for the coronavirus.  Malignant viruses develop all over the world, and many, many intellectuals had been telling us for years that another worldwide pandemic (I think HIV/AIDS was last official one) was coming down the pipeline.  So, in my opinion the blame for the destruction of western economies by the coronavirus should not be placed at their feet. We have plenty of ex-pats on this board, who may have grumbled about the heavy handed tactics of their host countries (Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, and Cuba for that matter), but those countries have done what mine (USA) has woefully failed to do - Save lives and restart their non-tourist based economies.

Personally, I recall reading the first article in January 2020, about China locking down Wuhan because of some virulent new disease.  My first thought was "Holy shit, this must be serious".  The reason I had this thought is I immediately recognized that the Chinese authorities had to have understood that they were sacrificing billions of Yuen in profits from all the businesses that they had to close to insure 14 million people were on lock down.  They also decided that they were going to have to dip into their treasury and feed, house, and provide medical care FOR AS LONG AS IT TOOK to stamp out the new virus.  Why no political leaders in the west saw it this way is mind boggling.  I also remember the incredulous news reports about the Chinese building field hospitals for thousands of people in a matter of weeks.  You don't build field hospitals in two weks unless you anticipate that thousands of people are going to need to be hospitalized. Some things are obvious. But, the obvious is what people in the west have consistently missed with respect to the coronavirus.

The Machiavellian fact is that the virus has rendered the western powers weak and destitute. The world is now easy pickings for the Chinese. The game is over folks.  I believe its wrong to say China started germ warfare, but the result is the same.  They are partying in China, not because they intentionally spread a virulent disease to the rest of the world, but because they were smart enough to recognize the danger and do what was necessary to stop it.

My final personal opinion is this:  the reason our political leadership in the west did not do what was necessary to stop the virus is because all the western powers are pawns of the same capitalist 1% who shipped all the jobs to China, and to stop the virus costs money, since you have to initially lockdown the economy for for 2 or 3 months, and pay everyone to stay home.  The chinese leaders were willing to pay everyone to stay home, the 1% in the west were not, and still are not in the US.  

But it is always easier to blame some foreign peoples for your own countries failings, and I expect most here will continue to do so.

You say leaders in the West did not see it this way. I think New Zealand did and to a certain extent Australia. The problem with Australia is that like the USA it has State leaders who dont always agree, so the controls/lockdowns dont always match.

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56 minutes ago, Woodie said:

You say leaders in the West did not see it this way. I think New Zealand did and to a certain extent Australia. The problem with Australia is that like the USA it has State leaders who dont always agree, so the controls/lockdowns dont always match.

Well, we can argue about whether New Zealand and Australia are Western Democracies...but that's another discussion completely...B)

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19 hours ago, RandiUno2 said:

Well, we can argue about whether New Zealand and Australia are Western Democracies...but that's another discussion completely...B)

You are kidding????.

I guess it depends on whether you regard the reference to Western as meaning UK, some Eurpopean countries, or even stretch it to the USA type of Demoracy?.

Certainly NZ/Aus have as much or more democracy as those aforementioned.

I think maybe you were having a dig or are completely off the planet.

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3 hours ago, Woodie said:

You are kidding????.

I guess it depends on whether you regard the reference to Western as meaning UK, some Eurpopean countries, or even stretch it to the USA type of Demoracy?.

Certainly NZ/Aus have as much or democracy as those aforementioned.

I think maybe you were having a dig or are completely off the planet.

Well, it was meant as a joke since I have never understood what was "Western" about the western democracies...and New Zealand and Australia are definitely in the east.  I'm not disputing they are democratic countries 

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Australia called for an "independent" investigation into the origins of Covid 19, instead of the farce that China is conducting currently.

 

A. This touched a nerve so deeply in China for exploration of the truth regarding the most devastating event in at least 70 to 100 years that it is retaliating with oppressive trade sanctions against Australia.

Like a school bully who stole something, once someone smaller points to the bully as a suspect it comes in bashing fists.

 

B. How can the virology labs in Wuhan be barred from examination under the investigation that the WHO and China are conducting?

There is only ONE level 4 virology lab in China. Its in Wuhan. Wuhan has been a mecca for bat coronavirus research globally.

To not include the labs as a culprit is like an investigation into nuclear contamination in Chernobyl and not deeply investigating the nuclear plant there.

The virus came from a leak (accidental) from either the Level 4 or Level 3 virology lab in Wuhan. The guilty party is distracting the world from this source.

 

Go and buy an Australian wine to support examination of the truth and prevent bullying against standing up for honesty.

 

 

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6 hours ago, The-Sith said:

Australia called for an "independent" investigation into the origins of Covid 19, instead of the farce that China is conducting currently.

 

A. This touched a nerve so deeply in China for exploration of the truth regarding the most devastating event in at least 70 to 100 years that it is retaliating with oppressive trade sanctions against Australia.

 

 

B. How can the virology labs in Wuhan be barred from examination under the investigation that the WHO and China are conducting?

There is only ONE level 4 virology lab in China. Its in Wuhan. Wuhan has been a mecca for bat coronavirus research globally.

To not include the labs as a culprit is like an investigation into nuclear contamination in Chernobyl and not deeply investigating the nuclear plant there.

The virus came from a leak (accidental) from either the Level 4 or Level 3 virology lab in Wuhan. The guilty party is distracting the world from this source.

 

 

 

 

Nicely put , The Sith :drinks:

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13 hours ago, The-Sith said:

Australia called for an "independent" investigation into the origins of Covid 19, instead of the farce that China is conducting currently.

 

A. This touched a nerve so deeply in China for exploration of the truth regarding the most devastating event in at least 70 to 100 years that it is retaliating with oppressive trade sanctions against Australia.

Like a school bully who stole something, once someone smaller points to the bully as a suspect it comes in bashing fists.

 

B. How can the virology labs in Wuhan be barred from examination under the investigation that the WHO and China are conducting?

There is only ONE level 4 virology lab in China. Its in Wuhan. Wuhan has been a mecca for bat coronavirus research globally.

To not include the labs as a culprit is like an investigation into nuclear contamination in Chernobyl and not deeply investigating the nuclear plant there.

The virus came from a leak (accidental) from either the Level 4 or Level 3 virology lab in Wuhan. The guilty party is distracting the world from this source.

 

Go and buy an Australian wine to support examination of the truth and prevent bullying against standing up for honesty.

 

 

A.  Right on point.   I have never heard of a sovereign nation wanting others to muck around in its business, and I'm sure China doesn't want anyone double checking their math.  The point I was making was not whether China was right or wrong, guilty or innocent, but that the real politik of the situation is out of hand, and basically China is stepping into the role of a global hegemonic power.

 China is a bully because the capitalist elite in the west gave them the resources to become a bully, and there is no turning back the clock at this point.

The sad fact of real politiks around the world is when someone or some group says a phrase like I'm "standing up for honesty",  it usually means they are the weaker party in the power relationship. 

As Thrasymachus said in Plato's Republic "Justice is the advantage of the stronger".

Finally, the responses of various global leaders to the Coronavirus is independent and separate from the source or cause of the virus.  Whether the virus came from 1) a Chinese fish market; 2) accidentally escaped from a bat lab; or 3) was manufactured in a lab as a bio-weapo which accidentally escaped doesn't matter. The response should have been the same as what the Chinese did in Wuhan in January, and which has worked in China, Thailand, Vietnam, Taiwan, and New Zealand.  Unless you honestly believe the Chinese intentionally attacked its trading partners with the virus, the carping about the source is irrelevant at this point.  We will learn the source in time, the facts will come out, and it won't make a difference to the 325,000 Americans who have lost their lives because Donald Trump did not do what Jacinda Ardern did.

 

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We don't just have a new strain.....we have an entirely bioengineering disease that will be with us in multiple variants each and every year.

This is unprecedented. As one scientist said....something this different from its predecessors would have taken 800 years to evolve to Covid 19s current form.

We have something engineered, which

 

1. Is highly contagious (Shi Zhengli the coronavirus scientist in Wuhan published her works pre Covid 19 on using S Protiens to make coronaviruses more contagious between humans and animals and humans. She is a world leading scientist in this area aand especially on coronaviruses from bats. HOW COINCIDENTAL she does her Lab work in Wuhan! And she is known as The Bat Lady, pre Covid.

 

Is @rxpharm
still wondering about the source?

 

2. Its like a trojan horse. Unlike almost all other such diseases, you can spread yet be asymptomatic! With SARS, you needed to have a fever to spread it. So it could be detected. This one very ingeniously can trojan horse its way through populations.

 

3. Attacks the immune system and organs. Its not just attacking lungs...it attacks the heart, it attacks the brain, it attacks the nervous system. Im not sure what part of the engineering led to this but I have read this virus has been spliced with parts of the HIV virus (I want to state that I have NOT researched this enough to say either way this is true of false, like I can say for No.1 above).

 

The government and the people in the PRC are trained to just go after their goal no matter what the consequences. I.e. no morality needs to restrain attaining the goal. Hence, we have a situation where its likely a virus leaked from their lab. This is the new normal because we will see this type of carelessness again in the future again and again. Not just viruses but other areas too.

 

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There is a thought provoking research article published by Sage on September 10, 2020 regarding people's beliefs on the origins of COVID and then their corresponding support of various reactions to the pandemic. I would urge you all to read this article - a bit long, so I will just quote the abstract here.

Quote

Framing the Origins of COVID-19

 
 
First Published September 10, 2020 Research ArticleCROSSMARK_Color_horizontal.svg
 
 

Abstract

Conspiracy theories have flourished about the origins of a novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes an acute respiratory syndrome (coronavirus disease 2019 [COVID-19]) in humans. This article reports the results from a study that evaluates the impact of exposure to framed messages about the origins of COVID-19. We tested four hypotheses: two focusing on its origins as either zoonotic or human-engineered and two concerning the impacts of origin beliefs on the desire to penalize China or support increased funding for biomedical research. The results accentuate the importance of finding ways to combat the spread of misinformation and conspiracy theories related to this global pandemic.

 

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2 hours ago, The-Sith said:

We don't just have a new strain.....we have an entirely bioengineering disease that will be with us in multiple variants each and every year.

This is unprecedented. As one scientist said....something this different from its predecessors would have taken 800 years to evolve to Covid 19s current form.

We have something engineered, which

 

1. Is highly contagious (Shi Zhengli the coronavirus scientist in Wuhan published her works pre Covid 19 on using S Protiens to make coronaviruses more contagious between humans and animals and humans. She is a world leading scientist in this area aand especially on coronaviruses from bats. HOW COINCIDENTAL she does her Lab work in Wuhan! And she is known as The Bat Lady, pre Covid.

 

Is @rxpharm
still wondering about the source?

 

2. Its like a trojan horse. Unlike almost all other such diseases, you can spread yet be asymptomatic! With SARS, you needed to have a fever to spread it. So it could be detected. This one very ingeniously can trojan horse its way through populations.

 

3. Attacks the immune system and organs. Its not just attacking lungs...it attacks the heart, it attacks the brain, it attacks the nervous system. Im not sure what part of the engineering led to this but I have read this virus has been spliced with parts of the HIV virus (I want to state that I have NOT researched this enough to say either way this is true of false, like I can say for No.1 above).

 

The government and the people in the PRC are trained to just go after their goal no matter what the consequences. I.e. no morality needs to restrain attaining the goal. Hence, we have a situation where its likely a virus leaked from their lab. This is the new normal because we will see this type of carelessness again in the future again and again. Not just viruses but other areas too.

 

Regarding your point 2 - this is a faulty conclusion - there are other infectious diseases that can have asymptomatic transmission. One of the best documented and known cases was "Typhoid Mary" who carried the typhoid bacteria but never had symptoms. It was estimated she infected 53 people who died from the Typhoid infection. Other examples are: HIV, C. difficile, influenzas, cholera, and tuberculosis.

Mutations of infectious diseases are not uncommon. The statement that one scientist says 800 years before this many mutations could have evolved is not supported by the general scientific community. It also would be beneficial to see just how this scientist was able to come to this conclusion.

 

 

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