Pdoggg Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 PARIS — As officials struggled Wednesday to explain why a jet with 150 people on board crashed amid a relatively clear sky, an investigator said evidence from a cockpit voice recorder indicated one pilot left the cockpit before the plane’s descent and was unable to get back in. A senior French military official involved in the investigation described a “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona, Spain, to Düsseldorf, Germany. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter. “The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door, and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger, and no answer. There is never an answer.” He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.” While the audio seemed to give some insight into the circumstances leading to the Germanwings crash on Tuesday morning, it also left many questions unanswered. “We don’t know yet the reason why one of the guys went out,” said the official, who requested anonymity because the investigation was continuing. “But what is sure is that at the very end of the flight, the other pilot is alone and does not open the door.” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html Quote Link to comment
pacman Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ahh, this is the stuff of conspiracies.... IMO there are two possiblitlies, either the pilot left alone in the cockpit had a death wish & decided to commit suicide by plane or.... the more likely scenario, he had either a seizure, heart attack or fit & was rendered unable to open the door or fly the plane. I can only imagine the terror for those in the cabin. Watching & listening to a pilot banging on the cockpit door with increasing urgency, people must have been shitting their pants. This is another plane disaster that can be attributed to Al Qaeda / Taliban / ISIS. It was only after 9/11 that the decision was made to have all cabin doors on commercial planes lockable. And secured so they couldn't be broken down. The pilot would have known that as he banged away in vain. 1 Quote Link to comment
Pdoggg Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 Watching & listening to a pilot banging on the cockpit door with increasing urgency, people must have been shitting their pants. This is another plane disaster that can be attributed to Al Qaeda / Taliban / ISIS. It was only after 9/11 that the decision was made to have all cabin doors on commercial planes lockable. And secured so they couldn't be broken down. The pilot would have known that as he banged away in vain. Excellent point Paccers that the reaction to terrorist threats caused this accident. As far as shitting my pants, even a little turbulence makes me nervous. I don't get airsick or seasick; that's not a problem. But I have this unfounded fear that the turbulence is going to cause the plane to go spinning out of control. Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It looks like its the former i.e. the first officer had a death wish and wanted to take everyone with him. Why a prick like this couldnt just do it by himself I have no idea. There is an override to the door. I fly on the A320 all the time. But they can lock themselves in the cockpit if they wish. thats what probably happened here. Now, here in the US of A we have a "two person" rule i.e. whenever one pilot comes out to use the can another crew member must take his/her place. In 99% of the cases its a flight attendant. if you have a pilot hell bent on crashing the plane its tough to stop. If I were in the cockpit at the time and this happened, there is a crash axe used for fighting fires behind panels. I would access the crash ax, kill the pilot myself, and let the other pilot in in order to take over the aircraft. Quite frankly, I am rather shocked that these European carriers dont employ this procedure. Mark my words they will adopt it and rather soon. There is another practical reason for this as well. Should any attempted breach of the cockpit happened while one of the pilots comes out of the cockpit, there is NO WAY the door will be reopened. The door will remain shut and the aircraft will land with one pilot and one flight attendant in the cockpit and the other pilot will stay in the cabin. The door will NOT be reopened under ANY circumstances. The main reason they want two people up there-checklists. EVERYTHING pilots do is from a checklist no matter how routine. This is so they dont skip ANY STEPS. Hope this gives you a little more insight..... 3 Quote Link to comment
rxpharm Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 There have been a few more details published about the security procedures. German airlines do not have the 2 person rule and as ArchieBunker posted that probably will be changed very soon. In addition the type of cockpit door this airline (and most German ones) used was a higher security model - so the over ride can be blocked by the person in the cock-pit - which is what occurred in this case. The cockpit voice recorder was reported to have picked up the screams of the passengers as the plane descended, with the pilot banging on the door and shouting to be let back in. 2 Quote Link to comment
seven Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 So the co-pilot was a documented basket case. Oh, to be a lawyer representing relatives suing Germanwings for all their worth for hiring a pilot with psychiatric history. I hope these low budget airlines who chase costs and put safety at risk will cease to exist. Quote Link to comment
pacman Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Yes, it would have cost too much to sack the idiot. If German industrial laws are similar to other first world countries (and I'm sure they are if not worse) then the airline would be sued for unfair dismissal if their only reason for sacking him was depression. They were paying already for the regular psychiatric tests that had been ordered, I'm sure they would have loved the freedom to fire him. I hope this tragedy brings about the changes necessary to ensure that anyone in command of a plane who starts to lose the plot can be shown the door immediately without penalising the airline. 1 Quote Link to comment
Pdoggg Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Lufthansa is one of the airlines we're affiliated with. We got this email message from them: Restricted promotion via the Lufthansa Affiliate ProgramDear Lufthansa PublisherDue to the recent event in relation to yesterday’s crash in France, we would like you to avoid any postings of Lufthansa creatives etc. in this context. Moreover, we would like you to please refrain from proactively pushing the Lufthansa Affiliate Program in general.Lufthansa will, due to the bereavement, up from now and for the next day’s use adapted banners. Those will be automatically exchanged on your website so that no manual effort will have to be taken by yourself.We thank you in advance for your understanding and are available for questions at any time.Kind regards,Your Lufthansa Affiliate Team Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Knowing what I know about the industry, I dont think this guy could would have been hired. I do know of a couple of instances where pilots have behaved in a pretty crappy or nutty manner. But I do have to say that the pilots I know and/or worked with are calmer than most other front line airlines employees. Maybe thats because they are so well compensated or because they have a hell of a lot more power than anyone else on the property. If they had the two person in the cockpit rule in effect, I dont think this pile of puss would have done this. Dont think he would have had the balls to do it. 1 Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Looking back at this, I am not certain how you can prevent something like this. Of course the obvious answer is to prevent suicide/murderers from being pilots-DUH!!!!!!! Theres no practical way to screen pilots every 6 months with some cookie cutter psychological test that would produce a screaming red flag. Its not going to happen. I think if you have a pilot who wants to commit this type of atrocious act, it can happen. Here in the US of A we have a program to produce FFDOs-Federal Flight Deck Officers. They are pilot who are armed. Personally, I am all for it. having an armed pilot would DEFINITELY cut down on the chances of maniacs getting control of the aircraft and repeating the murderous events of 9-11-2001. That lock bypass was designed after 9-11-2001 in case a flight attendant was requesting entry and was "under duress". No way they will open the door in that type of situation. It would take them about 12-15 minutes to land somewhere and guess what would happen to the flight attendant "under duress" in the meantime....... 1 Quote Link to comment
seven Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Looking back at this, I am not certain how you can prevent something like this. Of course the obvious answer is to prevent suicide/murderers from being pilots-DUH!!!!!!! Theres no practical way to screen pilots every 6 months with some cookie cutter psychological test that would produce a screaming red flag. Its not going to happen. I think if you have a pilot who wants to commit this type of atrocious act, it can happen. Here in the US of A we have a program to produce FFDOs-Federal Flight Deck Officers. They are pilot who are armed. Personally, I am all for it. having an armed pilot would DEFINITELY cut down on the chances of maniacs getting control of the aircraft and repeating the murderous events of 9-11-2001. That lock bypass was designed after 9-11-2001 in case a flight attendant was requesting entry and was "under duress". No way they will open the door in that type of situation. It would take them about 12-15 minutes to land somewhere and guess what would happen to the flight attendant "under duress" in the meantime....... Yes of course. More guns is the answer! Quote Link to comment
rxpharm Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Missed shot = decompression. Something like a taser might be a reasonable alternative. Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Yes of course. More guns is the answer! Christ on a bike!!!! In this particular situation-YES!!!! Thats the last line of defense. You think the Federal Air Marshals, who are IN the cabin FFS, are armed with tasers or guns??? Besides one bullet that might pierce the skin of a commercial jet liner at cruise will not cause an explosive or catastrophic decompression. The main point is that if you have a pilot intent on causing mass murder theres very little that can be done about it. Its happened before and I doubt there is a way to make that type of risk ZERO. Personally, I think thats exactly what happened in the case of MH 370. I that case the pilot did NOT want to be found. Its sad that someone wants to turn this into a gun control debate. Thats NOT what this is all about. I repeat, I DOUBT that guy could have gotten a job at a major airline in the USA. Hell, had the European carriers had followed suit and adopted the 2 person rule I dont think this would have happened. They flew from Dusseldorf to Barcelona in the morning, did they not?? I bet the captain did not take a toilet break on that leg. Whats that flight about 2, 2.5 hours?? Thats NOT unreasonable for pilots NOT to come out of the cockpit...... Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Missed shot = decompression. Something like a taser might be a reasonable alternative. A decompression will not bring down an aircraft, even at cruise. A skunk who gets control of the cockpit and knows how to use the aircraft as a murderous tool can and will. Quote Link to comment
Tomcat Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Just out of interest if they have two pilots one can just clunk the other over head , strangle him or render him useless or spike his cola or whatever... is that not so... Quote Link to comment
SiamSam Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Just out of interest if they have two pilots one can just clunk the other over head , strangle him or render him useless or spike his cola or whatever... is that not so... Yes it is so TC however having the second person there reducing the risk/odds and I'd rather have that than just one loony in the cockpit alone. Until someone comes up with a better safeguard two people in the cockpit is better than the status quo. Quote Link to comment
duke007 Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Yes it is so TC however having the second person there reducing the risk/odds and I'd rather have that than just one loony in the cockpit alone. Until someone comes up with a better safeguard two people in the cockpit is better than the status quo. I did notice when sat at the front of an Emirates A380 Flight that a stewardess stayed in the cockpit when the Captain went for a stroll upstairs to the First Class/Business section and came back out when he returned Quote Link to comment
seven Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Its sad that someone wants to turn this into a gun control debate. Hell, had the European carriers had followed suit and adopted the 2 person rule Call it what you want. More guns isn't the answer. Heres something from your fav news station: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/31/woman-accidentally-shot-and-killed-by-2-year-old-in-walmart/ An Idaho nuclear research scientist who had taken her young relatives to Walmart to spend their holiday gift cards was killed Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded pistol from her purse and shot her. See, we just don't get shit like this in europe because of gun control. Yes, i'm sure european airlines got everything to learn from the US. Quote Link to comment
ArchieBunker Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Call it what you want. More guns isn't the answer. Heres something from your fav news station: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/31/woman-accidentally-shot-and-killed-by-2-year-old-in-walmart/ An Idaho nuclear research scientist who had taken her young relatives to Walmart to spend their holiday gift cards was killed Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded pistol from her purse and shot her. See, we just don't get shit like this in europe because of gun control. Yes, i'm sure european airlines got everything to learn from the US. If you want to open up your own thread about gun control be my guest. I cannot believe you cannot grasp to what I am referring. I am SPECIFICALLY talking about this situation. You are off on a tangent. You think an armed pilot is going to leave their weapon lying around the cockpit?? You think a 2 year old has access to the cockpit?? Again, this thread is not about gun control. Granted its only an opinion but its my opinion that this would NOT have happened, had Germanwings employed the 2 person rule. If its a bad rule why are some carriers changing SOPs to include this rule the day after this horrible incident??? Its too bad that there have been numerous incident of pilot suicides over the last 30 years. Thankfully its quite rare given the volume of flights worldwide daily. I dont think we can ever make certain things like this NEVER happen again. Once again, due to my vast experience inside this particular industry, I dont think this guy would have been hired at a US flag carrier. Quote Link to comment
Pdoggg Posted March 29, 2015 Author Share Posted March 29, 2015 Just out of interest if they have two pilots one can just clunk the other over head , strangle him or render him useless or spike his cola or whatever... is that not so... I dunno. A cockpit brawl is a very different animal than crashing a plane. My guess is that if the pilot had never left the cockpit there would have been no crash. I'm not sure if a suicidal guy wants to get into a fist fight and kill a man with his bare hands or maybe lose and be shamed while he's still alive. OTOH, I suppose a train engineer could cause a crash and kill lots more people. Quote Link to comment
SiamSam Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Call it what you want. More guns isn't the answer. Heres something from your fav news station: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/31/woman-accidentally-shot-and-killed-by-2-year-old-in-walmart/ An Idaho nuclear research scientist who had taken her young relatives to Walmart to spend their holiday gift cards was killed Tuesday when her 2-year-old son pulled a loaded pistol from her purse and shot her. See, we just don't get shit like this in europe because of gun control. Yes, i'm sure european airlines got everything to learn from the US. I gotta agree with Archie here seven. I'm with you when it comes to guns but in my mind this isn't a gun issue. Quote Link to comment
pacman Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Of course Archie is right. Anyway, it didn't take long for changes to occur, the Australian Government announced this morning that legislation is being introduced to ensure there are two people in the cockpit at all times. And other countries made similar announcements over the weekend. Once again, due to my vast experience inside this particular industry, I dont think this guy would have been hired at a US flag carrier. Without denying your experience Arch, that's a big call. And I am not just referring to different airlines having different hiring policies, the problem for any airline is that individuals can change personality. The man they hired a few years back can develop mental illness due to any number of reasons. And smart people can keep it hidden for a very long time. I think airlines have to be given special dispensation to be able to sack any pilot whenever they show symptoms of 'ab-normalcy'. Even if it just a report from fellow pilots who express alarm at someone's behaviour. Quote Link to comment
seven Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ' pacman, again i'll have to ask you to not put words in my mouth. Please. Quote Link to comment
seven Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 And if the loonball who becomes suicidal happens to be the person carrying the gun...?!? Give the other guy two guns. Quote Link to comment
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