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An Alternate View of Sky's View of Ladyboys


JerryHopkins

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An Alternate View of Sky’s View of Ladyboys

I’ve delayed posting this for some time because nearly everyone who has posted seemed to love the series; surely my contrary view was mistaken. Well, enough time has passed and I haven’t changed my mind, so here goes. I watched all six hour-long episodes and thought them professionally videotaped, but that’s about it. The approach seemed sympathetic, but it for me it was Disneyesque, lacking in depth and perspective and connection to reality. The Thai ladyboy was not placed in a worldwide, historical, and cultural context---which isn’t as dull as that makes it sound---and just saying they are women born in men’s bodies is not only simplistic, it’s wrong. And…cutting away to Scott and David and their ladyboys romping in the surf or cuddling beneath a palm tree every time you get close to revealing something uncomfortable is dishonest.

I was also seriously annoyed by so much attention being paid to the beauty contests and cabaret shows. Yes, they are an interesting phenomenon---drawing more coverage by local media than the Miss Thailand competitions---but Sky kept going back and back, in episode after episode, drooling over the fact that the performers could lip-synch to Lady Gaga and then get all that money in tips posing with the customers afterward. As if that MEANT something. It does mean something, of course, but Sky was not applauding, it was condescending.

That was what bothered me most---the faux happy face put on ladyboys: isn’t it wonderful that they have rich Caucasian men taking them out of the bars and buying clothes and bars for them and isn’t it nice that one got elected to public office and became “the most famous ladyboy in Thailand” and isn’t it even nicer that an airline no one ever heard of hired a few to be flight attendants (solely for the publicity)? How, exactly, did each of these things happen? Who suffered and who fucked who to make it occur? Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but Sky made it look like someone waved a magic wand. (No pun intended.)

A ladyboy I’ve spent considerable time with over a period of about four years---the one who’s helped me most with the book I’m slowly working on---told me, “Every ladyboy has a sad story.” Not according to Sky. Yes, Miss Nigeria said she could be stoned to death back “home” in Africa, but she lived in the US, as did Miss Cuba, who grew up in California. Why didn’t the Sky team ask why that contestant from Chicago spent £60,000 on surgery (including the removal of four ribs!); there’s a sad story for you. Why didn’t Sky interview my friends at Cascade and Casanova? Sky’s take on ladyboys was like what Julia Roberts in PRETTY LADY was to whoring. Take her off the street, buy her a nice dress and escort her to a party and that makes everything alright, makes the whore an improved person, right? When I saw that movie, I wanted to shove Cinderella’s glass slipper up Richard Gere’s middle-aged ass.

I also felt cheated when it came to Sky’s not revealing that which was foremost in every viewer’s mind: the ladyboy penis. Even the BBC some years ago in a terrific documentary about the Indian hijras had the guts to show what one of those people looked like, close-up, after having her cock crudely amputated (the only word to use; several bleed to death every year). In Sky’s six hours there was never more than a hint of cock on show: small, limp and inside a bikini, a quick glimpse that they returned to several times, as if to say, “Oh, wow! Isn’t it amazing! So gorgeous and they have cocks, too!” Oh, yeah? This isn’t radio; show me!

You can watch these programs on YouTube, but a much better documentary can be seen there called GIRLFRIEND FOR SALE. It follows two young Thai women and a ladyboy into the sex trade and it tells the truth. I never cried once while watching the Sky series. I can’t say that about this one.

P.S. to Sky: It’s pronounced PAH-tee-yuh. Not puh-TAI-yuh.

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It's a made for tv documentary that's meant to garner ratings as well as inform. I think it reasonably accomplished both objectives.

From my perspective it was good that they didn't focus too much on the raw side of the ladyboy experience as that would overly sensationalize it and reinforce the negative stereotype of ladyboys as sexworkers and ladyboy admirers as perverts.

Not all, not even a majority of ladyboys in Thailand are prostitutes. Most live their lives like anyone else (serving food, selling goods in a shop or even working in construction), facing discrimination but not dwelling on it.

Moreover, we have a skewed view into their world because we're outsiders so we don't understand half of what we see. And since the sample of ladyboys most people (including myself) on this board know are mostly sex workers, this gives us a warped perspective to begin with. So I wouldn't assume that my experience and perception of the ladyboy world -- which may be congruent with yours -- is representative of the broader experience of Thai ladyboys.

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Jerry you have some good views but Zaronxas is right, it was made for the public who mainly have no idea what a Thai ladyboy really is or how some of them live their lives. Sky like any TV company are after viewing figures, if they had gone too deep on the first documentary the average person would have switched off.

When Sky commissioned the series they said if they got half a million viewing figures it would be a great sucess, they achieved over a million with every episode, it was getting more viewers than Sky One during the hour the show was on, I think that tells the story of what the British public want to see.

They also wanted to keep it clean, they said nudity was not what they were after, they also cut swearing out, this was under the orders of Sky, and to be honest why is there a need to see a cock, we all know its there do we really have to see it to confirm it. If I see a war veteran on TV I dont need to see the scars to believe that his legs were blown off.

Can you also imagine how hard it would be for the film crew to go to the likes of Tiffanys and say 'lets see your cock', yes they could get a girl off the street to show them it but wheres the story, how does it tie in, or do they say heres a ladyboy and heres her cock, now back to David and his girlfriend. Most of the episodes were about showgirls or individuals and I dont think anyone would have been expecting to see Paengs or Annies cocks seeing as they are in relationships.

The comment about every ladyboy has a sad story is very true but that is also relative to nearly every man and woman on this planet at some stage of their lives, its not restricted to ladyboys.

I do agree that too much was shown about the showgirls, it was good to see that side but I would have preferred to hear more of the street girls stories.

They are planning on season two which will go more in depth and will maybe answer some of your questions but the first series was to give people a glimpse of some ladyboys without scaring the viewers off or making them switch off due to being too deep.

They had to walk before they can run and personally I think they made a good series and this is the first negative opinion I have heard from a board member, but all opinions are good and thanks for posting your views.

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I have to agree with Zaronxas and Flatpack.This is a sky tv programme,Sky is not noted for its in depth high brow documentaries,but is designed to achieve ratings.Sky is owned by the same guy who owns the Sun newspaper,its tabloid tv,catering to the mass market.

Saying that,it did a great job introducing Ladyboys to the general public,especially in the UK,where the only contact most people ever have with TS ,is the drag act lip-syncing to Gloria Gaynor down the local club.

Just imagine an alternative LB documentary......BBC THREE ...Melvyn Bragg or Joan Bakewell interviewing people who had undergone SRS ,and asking them "when did you first realise you were actually a woman in a man's body?"....interviews with psychologists and psychiatrists explaining the difference in male and female brain chemistry....Maybe interview a few big hitting TS porn stars like Yasmin Lee etc......That would have been as close as they came to putting a human face to the Ladyboy story-there would have been no Scott and Paeng,Annie &David story....that would have been deemed populist and trivial.I know which docu I would prefer to watch...and I love BBC3 !-555.

Over 1 million viewers,and the vast majority greatly enlightened after watching the Sky program...pretty good result IMO.

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Sorry, but I've got to go with all the other posts Jerry... You've batted from wanting it to be 'high brow' entertainment on one hand, right the way over to also wanting to see soft porn dickkie bits, on the other!?

There's never nothing as consistent as being inconsistent?

Maybe you think you could have handled the thing better? Maybe there's a few of us who might like to think that we could?.. But why give it such a pounding? As you know yourself, it would have been a very clever bunch of people indeed who put that show together & I'm certain that they all would have aspired to do more with it, but it no doubt wouldn't have been within the producers remit. Considering the constraints of commercial television, I actually applaud them for what they did!

Yeah, could have been better, but at the end of the day, what wouldn't?

:hi:

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Hey. I havent even seen the damn programme but I am inclined to Jerry's view. What do you want? Entertainment or the truth. Lets see Sky cover the Vietnam war and give us the nice, heartwarming view?

Fuck, no!

I purposely wont bother to watch it now. Sky and the "remit" represent pap TV.

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Hey. I havent even seen the damn programme but I am inclined to Jerry's view. What do you want? Entertainment or the truth. Lets see Sky cover the Vietnam war and give us the nice, heartwarming view?

Fuck, no!

I purposely wont bother to watch it now. Sky and the "remit" represent pap TV.

Buba you imply that there was no truth to the show, sorry but your wrong, there were no lies in the show, just a view of ladyboys that differed to how Jerry wanted to see them portrayed.

Are there ladyboys in relationships, Yes

Are there Showgirls, yes

Are there business Ladyboys, Yes

Are there ladyboys working the streets, yes

Are there ladyboys in legitimate jobs, yes

Were all these portrayed, yes, was the truth shown about all of these, yes.

Your commenting on something you havent even seen, unbelievable.

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Buba you imply that there was no truth to the show, sorry but your wrong, there were no lies in the show, just a view of ladyboys that differed to how Jerry wanted to see them portrayed.

Are there ladyboys in relationships, Yes

Are there Showgirls, yes

Are there business Ladyboys, Yes

Are there ladyboys working the streets, yes

Are there ladyboys in legitimate jobs, yes

Were all these portrayed, yes, was the truth shown about all of these, yes.

Your commenting on something you havent even seen, unbelievable.

Flatpack, I think you should read Jerry's post and consider it more deeply. Where did I say Sky's documentary was unbelievable? Just reading his post again, he said It touched on the surface, In my mind that seemed to be a comment that he could make and your replies, to me, suggest that it was light weight fluff. An LCD moment, na?

I commented on your responses to his post. Can I do that? Yes, Your response? Fatuous.

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Flatpack, I think you should read Jerry's post and consider it more deeply. Where did I say Sky's documentary was unbelievable? Just reading his post again, he said It touched on the surface, In my mind that seemed to be a comment that he could make and your replies, to me, suggest that it was light weight fluff. An LCD moment, na?

I commented on your responses to his post. Can I do that? Yes, Your response? Fatuous.

Your comment 'entertainment or the truth' implies that it was unbelievable does it not.

Its pointless trying to converse with someone about a programme that they have not even seen, you comment on Jerrys points believing that his criticism is correct without watching it to have an opinion of your own.

Pointless and fatuous, at least Jerry watched it before giving an in depth opinion.

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Anyone directly involved in any subject is going to care more and have loftier hopes than any TV crew.

The Sky documentary series raised western awareness of Thai ladyboys. Is that a -- if not the -- measure of success? Absolutely. Does that mean Jerry doesn't bring up some valid points? No.

Of course it wasn't a representative test sample of the entire LB world (like him as I do in person, Cheyenne would never be my Ladyboy Representative in Ladyboy Congress), but with TV deadlines, budgets, and relative intelligences as they are, that would be an impossibility.

Has "Girlfriend for Sale" found the audience that the Sky doc did? No. What is more important, a greater product or a greater reach? Discuss.


Were all these portrayed, yes, was the truth shown about all of these, yes.


I guess a question might be, "What is truth?"

A poster elsewhere said that he was disgusted with the transgender politician, that "it's OK if they get a pussy, but not ok to be a girl with a dick… Until what is between your legs is a lesser part of what makes you a woman, nothing has changed… Posties are obsessed with PUSSY making them a REAL woman. And then join the other side, distancing themselves from what they used to be. I came away with the feeling that the MOST forward people are the common ones that do business with ladyboys, get them bathrooms in schools, etc."

I don't know what the rules are over at British Sky television. But I'd be willing to bet there are thousands of people right now secretly curious and wishing they had shown what a gorgeous asian girl with a cock looks like. If possible, it shoulda been shown. Not for cheap thrills, but for the simple fact that it would have short-circuited so many brains, exactly as it has ours.

Jerry, you're a crazy old coot, but I loves ya. BTW, if you were unawares, our man Flatpack is Scott from the documentary. And BTW, Flatpack, if you were unawares, Jerry is the motherfucker that ran around Mexico with Jim Morrison and penned "No One Here Gets Out Alive"...

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Honestly,

Although I enjoyed it...it looked like a 6 hour marketing tape or informercial geared to curious Westerners. I'm sure the live broadcast had Thail Tourism Authority and Marriot Phuket hotel ads running during the show! Barely scratched the surface I'm sure...but most people only want to know the surface anyway.

Looking forward to your book Jerry. Any chance you will do a follow-up on Ladyboys in other countries in Southeast Asia? The amazing question is "why are ladyboys so endemic in Muslim (Indonesia/Malaysia), Buddhist (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia), and Catholic (Philippines)countries all over SouthEast Asia". That is the interesting area for a book or academic study. Does anyone know if it has been done yet?

Cheers,

Randi

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The amazing question is "why are ladyboys so endemic in Muslim (Indonesia/Malaysia), Buddhist (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia), and Catholic (Philippines)countries all over SouthEast Asia".

And why is it that WASPs like them when there aren't that many in their home countries? :search::biggrin:

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Quietguy - I think that was covered somewhat from the comments of both Dave and Scott in the shows. Western women have become less feminine, more demanding, agressive, etc. So when guys discover the "ultrafeminine" lbs, it's like discovering lost treasure.

If you're from a Western country, just reflect on it and you should see just how different western women are compared to say 30-40 years ago.

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The amazing question is "why are ladyboys so endemic in Muslim (Indonesia/Malaysia), Buddhist (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia), and Catholic (Philippines)countries all over SouthEast Asia".

That is the interesting area for a book or academic study. Does anyone know if it has been done yet?

One factor is that the Southeast Asian, Chinese, and Japanese, body types make for passable ladyboys.

Dr Sam Winter's work my interest you Randi. His specialty is Asian transgender issues and he has won awards from the Association of Queer Anthropology.

http://web.hku.hk/~sjwinter/general/journal__articles.htm

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My take is you cant please everyone.

for a guy who has spent a lot of time in thailand and around ladyboys, its easy to pick holes in it.

should have done this, should have done that........

but for your average factory rat in the uk, who has only ever been to majorca, constanly working overtime to feed the kids, and has heard stories that "you have to watch it over there, the women have got cocks"

it at least showed ladyboys as something not to be ridiculed and laugh at.

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Great post,Anthony!

For all the "wankers and Dreamers" this really says it all! :happy0065: :happy0065:

Any of you guys reading this that fall into the above category, then "shit or get off the pot" and go over to Thailand and find out for yourself what we(Ladyboyist) already know! :biggrin:

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Okay, I surrender. You’re right and I’m (partly) wrong. I didn’t give Sky TV the credit it deserves for being so bold and giving ladyboys so much time and kindness. It was also courageous of Scott and David and their ladies to step forward and speak publicly and from the heart.

I was most touched by those of you who offered thoughts about how the show was received by the factory rats and other viewers whose reaction to ladyboys up to now has been negative and misinformed. I bet several Mrs. Factory Rats also had their heads spun around.

What I stand by is my belief in pushing Sky as far as possible. I know well that everything can be better and it’s usually beneficial to have someone on the outside making suggestions about how to accomplish that. If Sky does do a second season, a sad story or two wouldn’t be out of line, would in fact make the objects of all this attention more real, and therefore more likely to win increased understanding and compassion.

A word to Bubba: everyone who commented was right. I may have had reservations, but I really do think you’d enjoy the show. I did.

I want to thank you all for your comments and for coming down on me for being such an ungrateful shit. Or crazy old coot, if you prefer.

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I was up there with some in being concerned that this whole series could be sensationalised. Luckily that did not happen and overall the portrayal was broadly beneficial. Ironically the thing I least liked was that continual showing of the (probably least feminine) Tiffany showgirl in the car park and shouting "I ladyboy from Thailand" and flicking her huge eyelashes. Talk about a camp stereotype and contrasting with much of what else was shown especially the other Thai LB's who came across as very feminine without being camp.

I am sure the production team are looking in detail at which elements were popular, and which pieces not so popular - which will shape their views for any subsequent episodes. The element with the relationships probably had the biggest draw as it involved people the audience can relate too.

All in all, a good portrayal and I am sure, a new series would probably want to explore deeper many of the issues/relationships.

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